Hunger Games, Conclusion
Apr. 12th, 2011 08:37 pmI darted around to check out what other people are saying and was interested to see how everyone but me was WRONG people tended to praise the book for exactly what I was complaining about. I know I read extremely antagonistically, but also people are sheep. People quite happily went with the Effie-is-privileged-and-evil thing, and I wonder how much that has an overlap with the way, when people are criticizing privileged groups, they seem to zero in on women. They're just so wonderfully convenient as a target - everyone knows they get special treatment!
(Of course, if HP analysis taught me anything, it's that a hell of a lot of literary commentary is just people arguing nonsense because somehow there's no wrong answer. I hit this gem, which I can't really examine yet because I don't want spoilers, but even the bit I skimmed was enough to tell it was idiotic.).
The story the book wants to tell is this:
Katniss, our hero, lives in poverty and oppression while the rich hang out being evil and ignoring her suffering and looking down on her. But actually, the poor are good people, and oppression is wrong.
Unfortunately, it's more like the Good People are poor: Katniss, Gale, Peeta, Rue, and even Thresh. The Bad People are wealthy: Effie, the Capital, the Career children. To be poor is to be disadvantaged (Katniss is hungry and thin) but it makes you superior (Katniss is able to handle adversity, while the Career children are a pack of angry dogs and Effie's an idiot who doesn't know what pearls are.) And "wealthy" is defined mostly as those who have something you don't. Oppression is wrong when it hits you, but hate everyone different than you are.
This is not actually a good message. What makes the rich bad are when they're rich at the expense of the poor - fetishizing poverty is just a different flavor of the old rural vs city thing, with the idea somehow living in the country makes you moral. It certainly doesn't suggest the solution is to improve people's lives. And it ignores the actual power. Effie is not in power. The other children are not in power. There are people actually in charge here, and a blanket condemnation based on who happens to have more stuff than you misses that. The people in the capital may or may not be in power, it's unclear if the population at large has any ability to do what they want, or if they're effectively the same as any other district but with more stuff. Envy should not be the core of your message.
And, like most books, it wants to eat its cake and still have it. Katniss is pretty, but she doesn't need makeup or any other actual treatment to look like that. She only needs a padded dress because she's lost a cup size from the games, because somehow she had a perfectly good chest before this. And it's wrong to think badly of people for not knowing how to act according to the upper class' standards, but of course Katniss knows how to and naturally does unless she's deliberately trying to gross someone out. (You know who's truly privileged? The person who can blithely dirty the tablecloth, because they're not the ones who have to wash it.)
Now, certainly the whole noble/villain thing has its issues, but I think a good argument can be made that at least in America, the roles are, as I said, rural/city. You aren't really challenging anything with the farmboy protagonist who opposes the evil city (that has such strange perversions as BOYS WEARING LIPSTICK), especially if you insist your protagonist gets all positive traits associated with the richer class (appearance, behavior, health, education) and is fawned over by the majority of them.
Worse, just as the rhetoric of rural/city ignores that they're both quite modern places, the book is happy to pretend the average person is just Katniss with a bit less evil government, rather than one of the capital people. This more than anything I think removes any good effect you could claim the message has - it's not simply that it's clumsily done, it's done in a way that's more about assuring the reader that of course, this isn't meant to be saying anything bad about them. Of course they aren't one of the better off happily oblivious to the suffering of people outside their limited sphere, and certainly not one of those voyeuristicly enjoying a sanitized version of their suffering for fun. And of course none of the other people around them are to blame either. And that's the exact opposite of a useful message.
I think I've covered the problems with female characters in general. Katniss in particular does a bit better, but not on the level it's deserving of praise.
Katniss is pretty much an honorary man, right down to the part where she's not actually as good as a real man. She performs a male role (not only providing for the family a male job, with both Gale and Katniss having working fathers and useless mothers, but she's explicitly taking on the role of her father in hunting and gathering) because of a female motivation (caring for her sister, the mothering role). She's skilled at it, yet also somehow inferior, and should take more pride in the idea people are fond of her and helping her out than that she was actually able to provide for herself, as if "I'm doing this because I find you so cute and vulnerable, not because I think you're truly qualified" is somehow a compliment.
She does, by virtue of being the main character, manage to be stronger than her love interest, or at least the main one (Gale is providing for a larger family and without the benefit of everyone looking out for him, so he's better than she is). But this is portrayed as completely unnatural - Peeta has to be handled carefully whenever she's better than he is, and the book keeps insisting he's a skilled combatant when that's impossible. In the interview she curls up in his lap because he's the big strong protector. She isn't supposed to be proud of being the stronger person in the relationship, and as soon as she can, she pretends she's weak.
Katniss does not contradict the idea there are male and female roles. Taking on male traits is at the expense of female ones - she has no understanding of emotions, even her own, and she's both scared of and incompetent at healing. (That this is a sharp divide is clear - her mother and sister are both feminine, healers, and even look the same.) Gale, again, provides a counterpoint - he's acting on his interest in her (in the terrible indirect way that characterizes all "romance" in this book) as well as generally more aware of things, so it's not simply that you can only have one or the other, it's that Katniss, by trying to be someone she isn't, ie, male, ends up an incomplete person. She's inferior to an actual man but completely incompetent as a woman.
As usual, there's people praising how the storyline is about her learning to accept emotions, because god knows there is such a lack of literature explaining that strong women are actually broken and need to be fixed so they can accept they secretly do want love and to have a strong boyfriend protect them. Because the only reason a girl would not have a boyfriend is that she's broken. The rest of the explanation is, as usual, that she's strong because she's a decent fighter, and otherwise things that, if she was a male character, no one would need to point out.
So - better than it could be, yes. She is the main character and she does have positive traits. But you know, we're a whole decade into the twenty-first century now, I think I'm allowed to ask for more from feminism.
Especially considering the romance.
God, the romance.
The romance means Peeta has no positive traits for Katniss to like - it's not "he's a kind person, and I like him for being kind to me", because his motivation was that he was already in love with her. In this light his actions seem self-serving, not caring. He doesn't allow her any chance to refuse him, either - he does things for her and it's hard to see it as out of selfless love when he keeps trying to get her to reciprocate. A person who acts like your friend then tells everyone else he loves you rather than being up front is a manipulative person.
Now, the fact that Peeta is a sixteen year old boy mitigates this somewhat, except that Peeta really is a great actor. Unless we're meant to view Peeta as being actually in love with the random crowds just as he's actually in love with her, Peeta doesn't have the excuse of being bad at this. By all appearances he's far more emotionally mature than she is. If he told her he was in love with her directly and she refused to believe it, this would be more excusable, but instead, when she reacted badly he let her keep thinking it was just a ploy rather than being honest and giving her the chance to say no.
Katniss being the stronger/protective side of the relationship should have helped this a bit, except she wasn't. Peeta saves her directly, while to save him she's forced into the role of healer. Her competence then becomes a point of contention between them. The book tries for some forced equality as well, with the two of them alternating decisions or arguing about them, despite the fact they aren't equal - Katniss knows what she's doing and he doesn't.
The rewrite solution here is easy - the romance should have been a fake from the start.
Peeta gave her the bread because he's a decent person. They don't want to kill each other because they're decent people. The romance thing is done because it'll make them stand out a bit and sponsors might give some gifts because they love a story like that. Peeta goes further because he's decided since he can't win, he at least wants Katniss (and by extension his district) to - and that's taken as romantic love because of what he said in the interview and because it's all anyone can ever think about. Katniss, then, continues the act when they join up again because she needs sponsors to save him, while Peeta thinks she really means it. Making this more clearly her choice would really help things. Then by the time Katniss realizes he's not acting, the games are almost over and she's starting to actually feel like she's in love with him, so she doesn't know what to do. And in the arena, Peeta does what she says and knows he's not going to win on his own, instead of ordering her around and insisting he can handle himself.
(Even rewritten, the romance should also be far less of a focus, because really, treating it as more important than the death of twenty-two kids is disgusting.)
Just on a technical level, this book is a pile of crap. The writing itself is terrible and the research is nonexistent - and I know that I use hyperbole a lot, so I want to be clear here, I don't think she did any research at all, on anything. At most, she may have looked up some plants to pick Katniss' oh-so-special name. The things I complain about here all involved the following highly technical investigation:
Read sentence.
Wonder if that was actually true.
Google.
Skim through first page of results.
These errors were almost all not plot points. Changing them would not have affected the story. The author was just that lazy.
I'm not going to make any points about this being a published book, because it doesn't matter. If I can do a couple minutes of research now just to check if she's wrong, she could have done the same thing when she was writing it. Anyone with internet access could.
And related to this is the author's viewpoint. There's no homosexuality in this. It's not simply that there are no gay characters, but there's no room for it to exist. In fact, there's no room for non-reproductive sex at all, and relationships that aren't based around sex. I would argue that this, too, is an error. The fact she very obviously doesn't like those things can't change that they exist, and that knowledge of them is no longer thoroughly suppressed. When she's writing a world full of people, it shouldn't be carefully designed around her prejudices.
This is easily the least of the errors, since they're ones of omission, but I think letting something like this pass just because the book did so many other things wrong as well is foolish.
So in sum: they're tolerable books if you read them fast and don't question what they say, though I feel even with that, some of the underlying messages are toxic (ie, the pigs is a factual error, Effie's treatment and the portrayal of the capital are not, as is the regressive treatment of relationships). And the complete lack of effort put in is inexcusable on the author's part.
(Of course, if HP analysis taught me anything, it's that a hell of a lot of literary commentary is just people arguing nonsense because somehow there's no wrong answer. I hit this gem, which I can't really examine yet because I don't want spoilers, but even the bit I skimmed was enough to tell it was idiotic.).
The story the book wants to tell is this:
Katniss, our hero, lives in poverty and oppression while the rich hang out being evil and ignoring her suffering and looking down on her. But actually, the poor are good people, and oppression is wrong.
Unfortunately, it's more like the Good People are poor: Katniss, Gale, Peeta, Rue, and even Thresh. The Bad People are wealthy: Effie, the Capital, the Career children. To be poor is to be disadvantaged (Katniss is hungry and thin) but it makes you superior (Katniss is able to handle adversity, while the Career children are a pack of angry dogs and Effie's an idiot who doesn't know what pearls are.) And "wealthy" is defined mostly as those who have something you don't. Oppression is wrong when it hits you, but hate everyone different than you are.
This is not actually a good message. What makes the rich bad are when they're rich at the expense of the poor - fetishizing poverty is just a different flavor of the old rural vs city thing, with the idea somehow living in the country makes you moral. It certainly doesn't suggest the solution is to improve people's lives. And it ignores the actual power. Effie is not in power. The other children are not in power. There are people actually in charge here, and a blanket condemnation based on who happens to have more stuff than you misses that. The people in the capital may or may not be in power, it's unclear if the population at large has any ability to do what they want, or if they're effectively the same as any other district but with more stuff. Envy should not be the core of your message.
And, like most books, it wants to eat its cake and still have it. Katniss is pretty, but she doesn't need makeup or any other actual treatment to look like that. She only needs a padded dress because she's lost a cup size from the games, because somehow she had a perfectly good chest before this. And it's wrong to think badly of people for not knowing how to act according to the upper class' standards, but of course Katniss knows how to and naturally does unless she's deliberately trying to gross someone out. (You know who's truly privileged? The person who can blithely dirty the tablecloth, because they're not the ones who have to wash it.)
Now, certainly the whole noble/villain thing has its issues, but I think a good argument can be made that at least in America, the roles are, as I said, rural/city. You aren't really challenging anything with the farmboy protagonist who opposes the evil city (that has such strange perversions as BOYS WEARING LIPSTICK), especially if you insist your protagonist gets all positive traits associated with the richer class (appearance, behavior, health, education) and is fawned over by the majority of them.
Worse, just as the rhetoric of rural/city ignores that they're both quite modern places, the book is happy to pretend the average person is just Katniss with a bit less evil government, rather than one of the capital people. This more than anything I think removes any good effect you could claim the message has - it's not simply that it's clumsily done, it's done in a way that's more about assuring the reader that of course, this isn't meant to be saying anything bad about them. Of course they aren't one of the better off happily oblivious to the suffering of people outside their limited sphere, and certainly not one of those voyeuristicly enjoying a sanitized version of their suffering for fun. And of course none of the other people around them are to blame either. And that's the exact opposite of a useful message.
I think I've covered the problems with female characters in general. Katniss in particular does a bit better, but not on the level it's deserving of praise.
Katniss is pretty much an honorary man, right down to the part where she's not actually as good as a real man. She performs a male role (not only providing for the family a male job, with both Gale and Katniss having working fathers and useless mothers, but she's explicitly taking on the role of her father in hunting and gathering) because of a female motivation (caring for her sister, the mothering role). She's skilled at it, yet also somehow inferior, and should take more pride in the idea people are fond of her and helping her out than that she was actually able to provide for herself, as if "I'm doing this because I find you so cute and vulnerable, not because I think you're truly qualified" is somehow a compliment.
She does, by virtue of being the main character, manage to be stronger than her love interest, or at least the main one (Gale is providing for a larger family and without the benefit of everyone looking out for him, so he's better than she is). But this is portrayed as completely unnatural - Peeta has to be handled carefully whenever she's better than he is, and the book keeps insisting he's a skilled combatant when that's impossible. In the interview she curls up in his lap because he's the big strong protector. She isn't supposed to be proud of being the stronger person in the relationship, and as soon as she can, she pretends she's weak.
Katniss does not contradict the idea there are male and female roles. Taking on male traits is at the expense of female ones - she has no understanding of emotions, even her own, and she's both scared of and incompetent at healing. (That this is a sharp divide is clear - her mother and sister are both feminine, healers, and even look the same.) Gale, again, provides a counterpoint - he's acting on his interest in her (in the terrible indirect way that characterizes all "romance" in this book) as well as generally more aware of things, so it's not simply that you can only have one or the other, it's that Katniss, by trying to be someone she isn't, ie, male, ends up an incomplete person. She's inferior to an actual man but completely incompetent as a woman.
As usual, there's people praising how the storyline is about her learning to accept emotions, because god knows there is such a lack of literature explaining that strong women are actually broken and need to be fixed so they can accept they secretly do want love and to have a strong boyfriend protect them. Because the only reason a girl would not have a boyfriend is that she's broken. The rest of the explanation is, as usual, that she's strong because she's a decent fighter, and otherwise things that, if she was a male character, no one would need to point out.
So - better than it could be, yes. She is the main character and she does have positive traits. But you know, we're a whole decade into the twenty-first century now, I think I'm allowed to ask for more from feminism.
Especially considering the romance.
God, the romance.
The romance means Peeta has no positive traits for Katniss to like - it's not "he's a kind person, and I like him for being kind to me", because his motivation was that he was already in love with her. In this light his actions seem self-serving, not caring. He doesn't allow her any chance to refuse him, either - he does things for her and it's hard to see it as out of selfless love when he keeps trying to get her to reciprocate. A person who acts like your friend then tells everyone else he loves you rather than being up front is a manipulative person.
Now, the fact that Peeta is a sixteen year old boy mitigates this somewhat, except that Peeta really is a great actor. Unless we're meant to view Peeta as being actually in love with the random crowds just as he's actually in love with her, Peeta doesn't have the excuse of being bad at this. By all appearances he's far more emotionally mature than she is. If he told her he was in love with her directly and she refused to believe it, this would be more excusable, but instead, when she reacted badly he let her keep thinking it was just a ploy rather than being honest and giving her the chance to say no.
Katniss being the stronger/protective side of the relationship should have helped this a bit, except she wasn't. Peeta saves her directly, while to save him she's forced into the role of healer. Her competence then becomes a point of contention between them. The book tries for some forced equality as well, with the two of them alternating decisions or arguing about them, despite the fact they aren't equal - Katniss knows what she's doing and he doesn't.
The rewrite solution here is easy - the romance should have been a fake from the start.
Peeta gave her the bread because he's a decent person. They don't want to kill each other because they're decent people. The romance thing is done because it'll make them stand out a bit and sponsors might give some gifts because they love a story like that. Peeta goes further because he's decided since he can't win, he at least wants Katniss (and by extension his district) to - and that's taken as romantic love because of what he said in the interview and because it's all anyone can ever think about. Katniss, then, continues the act when they join up again because she needs sponsors to save him, while Peeta thinks she really means it. Making this more clearly her choice would really help things. Then by the time Katniss realizes he's not acting, the games are almost over and she's starting to actually feel like she's in love with him, so she doesn't know what to do. And in the arena, Peeta does what she says and knows he's not going to win on his own, instead of ordering her around and insisting he can handle himself.
(Even rewritten, the romance should also be far less of a focus, because really, treating it as more important than the death of twenty-two kids is disgusting.)
Just on a technical level, this book is a pile of crap. The writing itself is terrible and the research is nonexistent - and I know that I use hyperbole a lot, so I want to be clear here, I don't think she did any research at all, on anything. At most, she may have looked up some plants to pick Katniss' oh-so-special name. The things I complain about here all involved the following highly technical investigation:
Read sentence.
Wonder if that was actually true.
Google.
Skim through first page of results.
These errors were almost all not plot points. Changing them would not have affected the story. The author was just that lazy.
I'm not going to make any points about this being a published book, because it doesn't matter. If I can do a couple minutes of research now just to check if she's wrong, she could have done the same thing when she was writing it. Anyone with internet access could.
And related to this is the author's viewpoint. There's no homosexuality in this. It's not simply that there are no gay characters, but there's no room for it to exist. In fact, there's no room for non-reproductive sex at all, and relationships that aren't based around sex. I would argue that this, too, is an error. The fact she very obviously doesn't like those things can't change that they exist, and that knowledge of them is no longer thoroughly suppressed. When she's writing a world full of people, it shouldn't be carefully designed around her prejudices.
This is easily the least of the errors, since they're ones of omission, but I think letting something like this pass just because the book did so many other things wrong as well is foolish.
So in sum: they're tolerable books if you read them fast and don't question what they say, though I feel even with that, some of the underlying messages are toxic (ie, the pigs is a factual error, Effie's treatment and the portrayal of the capital are not, as is the regressive treatment of relationships). And the complete lack of effort put in is inexcusable on the author's part.
At Least It's Not Twilight
Date: 2011-04-13 02:21 am (UTC)I was going to say that SMeyer should at least get some credit for having a heroine who very definitely knows what she wants and makes her own choices regarding her love life, as inexplicable as those desires and as poor as those choices are. Then I remembered she does do the, "Do I or don't I? Well, I guess I sort of owe him, so..." thing, just with the rival instead of the main love interest, so, as always, nul points. If I were inclined to be generous toward her I might argue that it's a teensy tiny baby step in the right direction from the usual formula, but Stephenie Meyer does not exactly inspire generosity in me. Like you said, though, that Katniss goes Beyond The Impossible and manages to be that way toward both love interests is a huge fucking step backward.
Re: At Least It's Not Twilight
Date: 2011-04-13 02:36 am (UTC)It's kind of like this thing that happens in comics where the female characters, drawn by male artists in skintight outfits, are written by male writers to explain they choose to dress like this and complaining is disregarding the right of a woman to dress how she wants.
Re: At Least It's Not Twilight
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From:no subject
Date: 2011-04-13 03:14 am (UTC)To think I was all hellbent on stealing her copy and powering through it before she picked it up. Ah well, guess I'll go back to reading Homestuck. >:]
no subject
Date: 2011-04-13 03:29 am (UTC)I think the insidious thing is it's not really presented as a message, but more a thought pattern. The reason I leaped to Effie's defense was that I've seen that so often linked to character bashing in fandom that I started realizing how often we're presented with "and of course she was bad because X" when no one can articulate why X is actually a sign of evil. But the more often it's presented, the more it becomes a reason to immediately hate them. It's amazing how things can affect how you think indirectly. (For a really creepy example, I remember someone saying once that when they read Gone With the Wind as a kid, they spend a bit of time thinking that slavery wasn't all that bad, because of course in the book it isn't.) And while I think the majority of people won't be affected much by this, so many people are reading it (and other books with the same messages) that some of them are going to be absorbing it.
Which is not to say your sister shouldn't have read it or shouldn't be enjoying it. She and most people probably never won't notice anything in one particular book. And there are certainly so many other worse books out there. That said, hopefully she'll have better luck with shitty media and just get the poorly done ones, not the poorly done creepy ones.
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Date: 2011-04-13 03:28 am (UTC)"DANTE AND THE HUNGER GAMES?"
Ohmygod ihateeverything
no subject
Date: 2011-04-13 03:32 am (UTC)I’ve been through this same bit of denial when I’ve explained the popularity of Harry Potter and Twilight by examining the artistry and meaning of these books by Joanne Rowling and Stephenie Meyer. Much of the denial, sadly, is class bias and misogyny
If you don't like all of these books you are a misogynist, John has spoken (http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/johngranger/).
Well a guy told me I'm a misogynist I guess I'm wrong.
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Date: 2011-04-21 01:16 pm (UTC)1) Cinna?
2) Is it misogynist so much as it gender types in general? After all, wouldn't gender-swapped!Hunger Games be worse in regards to feminism on account of Peeta?
no subject
Date: 2011-04-21 04:18 pm (UTC)2) It gender types along very stereotypical lines.
girl!Peeta would still be a bad character, but assuming it's written exactly the same, girl!Peeta would be a physically strong kid who was inexplicably almost as good as the main character despite no previous experience, who he naturally deferred to as soon as girl!Peeta was well, and who's portrayed as the big strong protector once they're out of the games. You just would never see this, because a perfect genderswap of Peeta turns the world into a matriarchy because that character is so tied up in underlying gender assumptions of how of course the boy is treated like this.
A full gender swap would mean:
Katniss' mom was the hunter, and he's following in his mom's footsteps. His dad is the one who had the crippling bout of depression, and it's his little brother who's the delicate flower he's so protective of. Little brother is also the natural healer.
It'd be a male announcer getting bashed for being too perky, which would still have misogynist connotations (since perky is still a girl trait) but at least it'd be one step removed. We'd also have a female mayor and it'd be his son getting slammed for dressing up nicely for the reaping day. (In fact, all those characters I keep listing off are flipped, which could easily bump it to misandrist given there's a bunch of randomly evil women and no randomly evil men currently.) The drunken mess character would also be female, which honestly would be nice because how often do you get to see women being miserable in a way that isn't tragic and pretty looking?
While a female fashion designer is not exactly breaking new ground, it's a far cry better than the male fashion designer who's better in every way than the female one. Cinna's the main one and the one who gets credit for all their good ideas, having him be a her really improves that a lot. In fact, all the major players of the capital are now female - the interviewer and the person narrating the games, while the only male is minor-leagues Effie.
Oh, and it means the character who Katniss keeps talking about being presented as sexy is another boy. Really, how often do you see male characters getting sold based on their sexuality (and other male characters acknowledging it without twenty pages of "not that I'm gay" qualifiers)?
In the games, again, it's a little boy who's the innocent victim type. That also means the bit with Thresh is far less stereotypical, since now it's the strong girl upset about the weak boy's death.
Really, the only problem the genderswap has is that it means we don't have a female main character.
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From:no subject
Date: 2012-03-24 06:12 am (UTC)Just came across this review after reading the Hunger Games this week and laughing at how ridiculous that book is. I think your review is spot on!
The biggest problem seems to be a massive split between what it tells us and what it shows us. For example, it tells us that Katniss has spent her whole life struggling to get enough food to eat, but the book opens with her and Gale enjoying a large, delicious meal in a forest that's teeming with life. It tells us that district 12 is horribly impoverished, but it shows us that there's enough wealth there to support a candy shop, a toy store, a jewelry maker, and a bakery with fancy cakes. It tells us that Katniss is some ultimate hunter and wilderness survival expert, but it shows us that she doesn't really know anything more about wilderness survival than what a normal American teenager would know. It tells us that she doesn't love Gale or Peeta, but shows us that she obviously does (I'm sure that was written on purpose but it's still annoying). Worst of all, the book cover tells us that she'll have to make tough decisions about survival vs. morality, but it shows us that she doesn't actually have a problem choosing survival. As far as I can tell Katniss is a complete psychopath, but the book doesn't acknowledge that at all.
no subject
Date: 2012-03-24 06:21 am (UTC)1) She's spent her whole life training for how to survive in an area EXACTLY like the games arena.
2) She's a crack shot with a bow and arrow, which is really the best possible weapon for this. No one with just a sword or a spear would stand a chance.
3) Her mentor is some sort of strategic mastermind (although again, it never actually shows him doing anything very smart, but it tells us that he is).
4) She's got the best fashion designer ever, who makes her look super beautiful and wow the sponsors, so she should be getting tons of money and helpful items from them.
5) Peeta is apparently a brilliant actor, and utterly devoted to her, so he infiltrates the careers and risks his life just to help her.
6) She has absolutely no moral qualms about killing the other children. A normal person would be slightly more hesitant about that.
Seriously, she's got every possible advantage that I can even think of. If the other kids were smart, all 23 of them would ally together to try and take her out, because that's the only chance they'd have against her. I laughed really hard when Rue showed her the night-vision goggles because it was just getting ridiculous how lopsided her advantage was. She was never in any danger there at all, the only real question was how long it would take for her to finish off everyone else.
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Date: 2011-04-26 01:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-04-26 01:44 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2011-04-28 05:15 pm (UTC) - Expandno subject
Date: 2011-05-20 04:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-21 03:26 am (UTC)glimmer
Date: 2011-06-09 09:23 am (UTC)So Glimmer ---- I didn't get all the bibley on that one --- I just figured the Book had a problem with Cheerleaders and this was the best she could do to fulfill her hate the pretty blond girls need --- only beautiful Men are allowed to live for a while --- unless everyone hates them for no reason other than they are kinda old and lonesome --then they are never in any danger.
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Date: 2011-06-27 05:58 am (UTC)(What I mean by "clutter up the story": in my experience, America has a neurotic relationship with stories involving any form of sexual contact. "Normal" stories don't include sex. Period. So, if a character is sexually active, for any reason whatsoever--an 18-year-old recruit about to be shipped out for the first time; a porn actress; a groom on his honeymoon; a housewife--it's A Big Deal, and the story has to revolve around it somehow. It's either celibacy or pornography, no middle ground; the idea that sex can just be a part of life, with no special attention drawn to it, is complete anathema. Frankly, I don't blame Collins for not wanting to open this can of worms--especially in a YA setting.)
But how is Peeta's relationship with Katniss based around sex? I mean, yeah, he wants to bone her, but--speaking as a guy--that's kinda normal. We want to bone chicks we like. Doesn't mean he and Katniss can't have a working emotional relationship. (...Aside from the creepy manipulative scheidt they've been pulling on each other, but I think those behaviors came from somewhere much more fundamental than Peeta's peeta.)
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Date: 2013-01-17 07:06 pm (UTC)Actually I don't think so. At least for the rape. There simply is not enough safety for the act. Rape in combat situations is done after the fight and to the women of the losing party.
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Date: 2011-06-29 08:26 pm (UTC)I actually really liked that it is obvious how Katniss has to be aware of seeming less competent than Peeta - not for fear of insulting Peeta, but for fear of angering the crowd. I found this kind of double think (what does the audience think of this?) perversely enjoyable, since as the reader I am pretty much the audience. I thought it was revealing that these demands on women exist, and that they're dumb. You're absolutely right that she didn't spell this out, but I'm not sure it would have benefited from that. It is, however, spelled out throughout the books that while Peeta can lift heavy objects, his real skill is speaking to crowds, something Katniss can't do, but that she is clearly the superior warrior. It is also spelled out that while Gale is better at setting traps she is better at shooting - I'm not really sure where you got that he is the better at hunting because they have a bigger family, seeing as they share their provisions anyway.
I did have a moment when I found out Peeta has always loved her when I was like "um, he didn't just give her the bread because he's a good person?" This is something else that I thought got more interesting throughout the books, because in many ways it seems like all we know about Peeta is that he loves Katniss, and he is a good liar. In the third book you see what he's like without loving her and it's super interesting. There are times in the book when he thinks she loves him and she's just pretending and letting him think that, and others when he knows she doesn't love him, but she seems to be acting like she is anyway (even without an audience) and when he can suddenly see these without his own love clouding it he rightfully asks about it being manipulative and kind of cruel. Why is she sleeping in his bed if she knows he loves her but that she doesn't love him? They were clearly using each other, not in an evil way, but just the way that two pretty messed up people are likely to, which I thought added some interesting depth to her stereotypical "I'm a woman who's not in touch with my emotions, isn't that soooooooo weird?" character.
I am 110% with you in the lack of gay characters. I'm pissed.
no subject
Date: 2011-06-29 08:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2012-01-06 02:34 am (UTC) - Expandno subject
Date: 2012-01-23 03:18 am (UTC)Though I admit I am pretty addicted to "Hunger Games What Ifs" -- ways that the books would become immediately satisfying and it's a lot of fun.
But, basically, thank you! And I'll be reading the reviews of Catching Fire and Mockingjay when I finish those books!
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Date: 2012-02-22 08:48 am (UTC)Out of curiosity, I was wondering if you'd ever had aspirations toward being a professional editor. Because this right here is what editors do.
Oh, and here's a scary thought. This book went through an editor who I'm pretty sure would've made Collins do as much rewriting as possible before the publication deadline. Imagine how awful the book was BEFORE that. *shudder*
Thanks again.
no subject
Date: 2012-02-23 12:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-17 01:08 pm (UTC)Is the author actually homophobic, or is it just that there isn't homosexuality in the book? I just made a comment on the last post- that is actually one of the only things I think worked. Because I can see that government using that as another way to torture the districts. "If you're a woman who likes women, a man who likes men, if you want sex without children, sorry!" It's another tool of fear and control. As a lesbian, I of course hate the idea, but to me it's implausible that an already oppressive government wouldn't do that. Of course, people might break the rule, but I don't see Katniss thinking about how to get around restrictive sex laws as a priority right after the games. She may learn otherwise later but I don't think learning about how sex works is happening any time soon.
If the author is in fact homophobic, I will naturally be angry, but I still won't be for this book. I look at everything and remind myself that they live in a country where the government is determined to oppress and torture its citizens as much as possible. As much as the shaming of any non-tradititional sex bothers me, it's a necessary evil to make this universe work.
I also agree that the way other females are treated in this story is offensive, but one thing I want to add is that since it's from Katniss' POV, it could just be her attitude and not the author's. She hates Effie because she just doesn't like her. Teenage girls are liable to do that. It may not be right but we don't have anyone else's POV saying that. The story doesn't attempt to make her seem like an unreliable narrator, but in a way, by making it so Katniss is almost never contradicted, that makes it even more clear that she's unreliable. Because the most unreliable narrator will always be sure they are right. The same with her killing vs. others killing. It's a fallacy many people fall into. If you snap at the barista making your coffee, it's obviously because you had a bad day, you're only human. But if the barista snaps at you, then they're obviously an evil asshole and they deserve to be fired. Some women go out and picket abortion clinics and vilify all the women who get them as callous murderers and/or immoral sluts, but then go out and have an abortion of their own, which is completely justified because they are obviously good people and not just stupid sluts. They then proceed to continue protesting.
The story could have expanded on that a little more, making Katniss somehow realize that she was making excuses for herself killing others while calling them evil for doing the same thing, but maybe the author didn't feel like putting it in their. I personally feel it adds a sort of brilliance to it. A twisted brilliance, but still. The hypocrisy going unchecked makes her morals even grayer. She may never realize what a hypocrite she is, which is less sue-ish than her realizing how awful she's been and having a complete remourseful breakdown over it and immediately changing her ways. Maybe this is purely accidental on the author's part (if she is a mediocre as the critics are saying) but it's a brilliant accident, really.
(Continued)
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Date: 2012-03-17 01:09 pm (UTC)I agree that the stalking as romance angle is awful. Like you, I agree there needed to be more depth. Why couldn't it be them realizing they could lose each other at any moment and that being the reason they fall for each other, not "if you pressure them long enough they'll give in"? Or why not how all Katniss' traumas have affected her, including this romance? It could have been something deep and psychological, but nooo, obviously us teenagers are absolute incapable of wanting that! We just want romance and maybe a little violence thrown in, but not for the deconstruction of that, we just want to see them nursing each other's boo-boos. We're total idiots, see, we don't want any of that deep stuff.
I don't like the way the deaths were trivialized, but again, it's from Katniss' view and that could very well have been a subconscious coping mechanism. You demonize the others, it makes it that much easier to kill them or let them be killed. You can't carry the grief of 23 deaths of real people. So you have to make them not people, or at least people who deserved it. Her thoughts of actively killing are also survival. I'm sorry, but most people in that situation are going to make themselves #1. That in and of itself doesn't make an awful person. They're teenagers who are being forced to kill each other after all those years being in constant survival mode because of fighting to get enough food. They pretty much only care about people from their district. Again, it could have been written and deconstructed much better; all the writing did was make Katniss seem like a sociopath without giving any justification because the author assumed that as a main character she didn't need it. As you said, protagonist-centered morality. I would expect that from a book told in first person, but it didn't quite work.
I also hated that she was always holding one idiot ball, and it always applied to one specific thing. She would not remember about water, then not remember that fish are germier than rabbits, etc. That's bad writing, plain and simple. If your phlebotinum would ruin the book by not being forgotten, don't introduce it in the first place. It's ridiculous.
(Continued)
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Date: 2012-03-24 07:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-25 02:10 pm (UTC)If I can ever get my hands on a real translation I promise to complain about that and the fact everyone seems to be made of jello and keep meticulous track of how much stupider the girls are being and so on. But I really liked how it had a lot of people killing each other just out of fear the other person would kill them, and also the part where everyone blamed the government for this instead of forgetting about it most of the time.
I don't know if Shonen Hero becomes less annoying, I stopped reading midway through because the gore was getting to be a bit much and the one page at a time thing was tedious and never picked it back up. I was skimming over his parts so it's hard to remember what happens with him.
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Date: 2012-03-27 07:17 pm (UTC)It was an intersting read and I think I picked up some stuff about surviving in the wild, thank you.
With this conclusion... is there any obvious message about voyeurism concerning the reader in this? So far I thought this was a given in bloodsport stories. (I can think of two movies that made a point of telling the viewer of what a bastard they are. Peeping Tom was subtler about this but still managed to creep the audience out at its time [great movie, btw] and Funny Games points out "you pretty much kill the family by viewing this... have fun".) Most of the writers are aware of this... hell, about every splatter film ever is more about the killer murdering a bunch of jerks, not people escaping from danger. Battle Royale (the manga, don't remember if it was in the book) made a point that the government sucks, but that every viewer makes it harder to stop it.
My point is, HG is YA. With all the failed messages here, it could at least bring up the point that the reader is kind of in the place of the Game's audience by deliberatly picking up and reading a book about kids murdering each other.
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Date: 2012-03-29 05:40 am (UTC)There is a scene in the third book where Katniss is giving a dramatic heartfelt speech to people that's super important at a very dramatic point. Instead of looking at the people she's talking to, she's watching herself on a TV screen nearby giving the speech and thinking about how dramatic and heartfelt and totally sincere she looks.
There is no message whatsoever in these books about voyeurism, about the media, about any of it. The point of the cameras throughout the books is so everyone can see how awesome Katniss is.
(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2012-05-19 06:26 am (UTC) - Expandno subject
Date: 2012-04-01 08:17 am (UTC)I also don't understand how you feel the absence of homosexual characters is indicative of the writer's "prejudices." Not every story features homosexual characters or even heterosexual relationships; Rowling never felt the need to describe Dumbledore as homosexual within the Harry Potter books. This is just something that doesn't need to be mentioned.
It's evident that you don't enjoy the books, but you have very clearly let your bias get the better of you. You're hating on every little thing within the books and outside them when it really doesn't matter.
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Date: 2012-04-12 03:43 pm (UTC)I also don't understand how you feel the absence of homosexual characters is indicative of the writer's "prejudices." Not every story features homosexual characters or even heterosexual relationships; Rowling never felt the need to describe Dumbledore as homosexual within the Harry Potter books. This is just something that doesn't need to be mentioned.
Seriously?
Her books, like this one, are absolutely full of heterosexual relationships. Her books, like this one, end with various characters pairing up heterosexually. Like this one, no one so much as mentions homosexuality in the book. The only difference is she mentioned that one character was secretly gay the whole time. You ever notice how people don't wait for their series to finish and then announce that by the way, this character was secretly heterosexual the whole time!? That would be a double standard. She shouldn't need to ever describe anyone as homosexual, including Dumbledore, they could just kiss someone of their own gender the way many people get to kiss someone of the opposite gender throughout the books.
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Date: 2012-04-05 07:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-19 03:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-02 05:50 pm (UTC)I would really like to see a rewrite of this entire thing, now. It just feels like so much wasted potential.
Anyhow, now I'm really looking forward to reading your deconstruction of Catching Fire to see if we have similar thoughts, now that I'm actually paying attention to what I'm reading.
Thanks so much for this, seriously. :>
~Psychic
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Date: 2012-09-20 06:30 am (UTC)I really like dystopian fiction. But I just can't take THG as a serious work of dystopian fiction. I mean, it has elements, but it doesn't read that way to me. It feels more like an action/fantasy story that just so happens to have an evil government (and a pretty shitty evil government at that. Seriously- if that were a real totalitarian dictatorship, they would've taken out Katniss long before she could've pulled any of that shit.)
BTW- As far as Battle Royale goes, for me, the ranking would be Novel > Manga > Movie
The novel has less creepy eroticized guro/ sexist imagery than the manga (I feel like the manga did a lot of pandering), and does a good job of humanizing the kids. If you've only read the manga and not the novel, I highly highly recommend you read the novel! While I think the manga may have done a better job giving each of the characters backstories, the original work is still superior, in my opinion.
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Date: 2012-09-23 04:34 pm (UTC)Which I must admit, it does do very well!
Satire of media/pop culture? Bullllllshit! It -revels- in it!
Yeah, still not quite sure what the hell was going on there. It seems so obvious that you think the book must be intentionally written pointing that stuff out, and then it doesn't. And then it doesn't again. And then you're three books in and Katniss isn't looking at the people she's giving a dramatic speech to because she's too busy watching herself on the camera and thinking about how sincere and awesome she looks.
And that's good to hear! I'm going to be starting the novel next month.
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Date: 2012-11-11 11:56 pm (UTC)Overall, I enjoyed this book, in a swift-reading sort of way. It wasn't too 'heavy', but had enough weight behind it for me to find things interesting, to go and mull over afterwards. The second book improved in some ways and declined in others, and then the third... well, the least said, the better. I thought that there were a lot of interesting ideas, but that it didn't quite go together properly, and needed serious work (or another decade of growing up by the writer).
I have to wonder whether the editor just couldn't be bothered because they didn't realise that it was going to be popular.
Despite the flaws that you pointed out in Katniss... in some ways, I identified with her. I probably sound like a terrible person for saying that. But I came from a torn-up family and by the age of sixteen was struggling with depression, trust issues, and a whole barrel of other things which, eight years later, my second shrink is struggling to put words on. So yes, in some ways I identified with being that messed-up bundle trying to be multiple people at once. However, that is a definite bias on my part, because it was such a change from the saintly-bearing-burdens figures that you so often seem to see. Katniss was an asshole sometimes, and I found that refreshing.
Reading it from a distance, though, there is a gap between 'asshole' Katniss and 'sociopath' Katniss. Her responses to having to kill people could have been really interesting. As it is... you know, it really reminds me of the fanfic that I used to read (and struggle to refrain from writing) when I was about thirteen or fourteen.
The worldbuilding, yes, good lord. I didn't even understand for a long time that Panem was supposed to be the Roman Empire, because I am a prehistorian by nature but no what the hell you do not know how empires in general or the Roman Empire specifically worked arblegarble- *coughs* Yeah. Better than some settings that I've tried to wrap my head around, and there is at least a sense of the Districts being drained to support the Capitol, but the balance is just way, WAY off. It's just chopping random bits off and expecting it to work.
You cover the whole 'hunger' issue far better than I could. All that I can really add is this: I've been hungry. Not starving, but so poor that I lost nearly 15% of my body weight in two months and actually stopped menstruating. And Katniss's response to food did not seem anywhere near as irrational as mine can sometimes be. It either wasn't done subtly enough or wasn't thrown on heavily enough, and I really can't decide which.
The romance, well, I'm not sure that I even want to touch that. You can either read it as Peeta manipulating Katniss, which is creepy, or as this weird mutual dub-con which reeeeally gets under my skin.
One (last) thing (honest): the dissonance between the worldbuilding/language and the violence. The worldbuilding, and the language which Katniss uses throughout, seems quite... basic. I suppose the language can be down to it being first person and Katniss being uneducated, but the worldbuilding really seems like it's aimed at a relatively young audience. And then you have the violence, which struck me as being aimed at a rather older group. *shrugs* It unsettled me, in some ways.
Man, that got long. Sorry, result of reading everything at once, I suppose. In any case, I heartily applaud you for doing this, and found it solidly interesting. I do wish that there was more good quality YA fiction out there.
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Date: 2012-11-12 11:23 pm (UTC)Not at all. Katniss is frustrating because I can see how the character should work - she's been through a lot, she lost one parent directly and her other one proved unreliable, her life just generally sucks, and that's going to leave you with plenty of issues. It just wasn't handled well, she's too normal in some ways and then outright monstrous in others.
Which is really the whole book. Good concept, works okay if you read fast and paper over the issues with your own knowledge of how things should be, terribly flawed when actually considered.
Also, I should warn you the manga is full of lovingly depicted gore and rape. The novel is a much less gruesome read.
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Date: 2013-01-01 02:51 pm (UTC)I tried to write some fanfics about Panem but I couldn't go very far without jettisoning the concept. It's just way too economically inefficient. Crops of some kind and / or livestock of some kind is grown in every American state and every province of Canada. Why give that up? If the government controls food distribution, even if only in emergencies, that's sufficient to cut off the food supply to a rebellious district. I'm a sucker for good world-building. THG just doesn't have it.
The thing I like about THG series is that it gives us a fictional impetus to discuss class differences and how they operate. Unfortunately, it could all be done much better.