Eridan Meta, Part One/Who Knows
May. 18th, 2012 05:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
farlaSo, I was reading a perfectly decent Eridan fanfic one day. No woobie apologism or anything. It had Eridan going underwater to meet Feferi and feed her lusus and being miserable about it, an element that's popped up in various fanfics. And suddenly I remembered that we've seen her lusus feeding before, and it never required Eridan to do any such thing, and that if he'd been visiting Feferi underwater she probably wouldn't have said he never goes underwater.
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
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no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 04:53 pm (UTC)If you want to propose an alternate theory to the one where he decided to kill people, your first step is showing why the current theory that he did doesn't make sense, then why another theory makes more sense. What you're doing is throwing up every alternate theory you can think of and asking me to disprove them first, because it simply can't be that he decided to kill people.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 06:28 pm (UTC)We can agree to disagree if you like, until we have more information. But given that you have previously compared Eridan fans to genocide sympathizers,
(Arg he's gotten to Eridan apologism on the second one in. Well, that's incentive to finish mine.
( Speaking of genocide apologism,[...])
there is a heavy burden of proof on you.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 06:38 pm (UTC)On the same topic of words fucking meaning things, the fact something isn't impossible is not the same as it being plausible. You're making an argument from ignorance here - that since we don't know every last aspect of canon yet (and probably will never get details on every bit), that means I can't prove that every one of the unknown things supports this, therefore there isn't proof. There's a reason that's considered a fallacy.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 07:11 pm (UTC)It's only considered a fallacy if I am trying to prove something absolutely. I'm not. I'm simply offering my theories as a valid alternative. I have given several signs from canon that show why my theories are plausible. The only way to prove my theory absolutely would be to look forward in the canon, since we will very likely get more information on the angels and the hope aspect in general, given that this is what is missing. Hussie has outright stated that he will be revisiting the denizens at least, so we will be getting more data on Abraxas. I simply see no reason to discard my theory if it hasn't been disproven. On the other hand, I don't expect you to discard your theory given that I haven't disproven it.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 08:44 pm (UTC)We don't have much information. However, we DO have several indicators that Eridan's actions are more than they appear to be. I will fully admit that I can't prove my theory. But, I'm not going to let go of said theory unless it is disproven, something that could be done in a single pesterlog. Furthermore, remember the purpose of this essay: "to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon". If you are presenting this as canon, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that it is. And that is the whole and soul of the matter.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-16 12:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-16 09:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-16 11:48 am (UTC)2) In this metaphor, are you comparing genocide apologism to killing someone by accident compared to deliberately, or are you saying what he actually did was genocide by accident?