Eridan Meta, Part One/Who Knows
May. 18th, 2012 05:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
farlaSo, I was reading a perfectly decent Eridan fanfic one day. No woobie apologism or anything. It had Eridan going underwater to meet Feferi and feed her lusus and being miserable about it, an element that's popped up in various fanfics. And suddenly I remembered that we've seen her lusus feeding before, and it never required Eridan to do any such thing, and that if he'd been visiting Feferi underwater she probably wouldn't have said he never goes underwater.
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
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Date: 2012-05-19 04:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-19 05:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-19 05:14 pm (UTC)A Rebuttal to "Eridan Meta, Part One/Who Knows"
So, I was reading a perfectly decent [...] Vriska has apparently blocked him.
First, off, I didn't get the feeling that Vriska had actually blocked him. As seen here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004358) the reason that Vriska isn't responding to him was because she was busy dealing with her lusus at the time. He assumes that she has blocked him because she doesn't answer. The Trollian software still alerts Vriska of Eridan's message though, and it seems unlikely that the software would do that if she had really blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her [...] has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
Actually, his and Vriska's relationship IS made clear. In the Alterniabound flash (transcript here: http://pastebin.com/PqmBB6Hh, search for "spare me your disdain mindfang"), Vriska states that 'it was fun while it lasted', which I'm assuming means that they were in a rivalry of some sort. Not to mention, Eridan mentions here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004359) that at one point, he used to be the hottest of Vriska's irons. Eridan might have been lying to himself, but I doubt Vriska would have done the same. If anything, it appears more that Kanaya used to be their unofficial auspictice (as alluded to in the flash of quadrant examples here: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004303) and that Eridan was trying to make it official.
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Date: 2012-05-19 06:37 pm (UTC)The relevant part is that Eridan doesn't care if people are sick of dealing with him.
Actually, his and Vriska's relationship IS made clear. In the Alterniabound flash (transcript here: http://pastebin.com/PqmBB6Hh, search for "spare me your disdain mindfang"), Vriska states that 'it was fun while it lasted', which I'm assuming means that they were in a rivalry of some sort.
That's what I mean. We know they were involved to an unknown degree, but we don't know if they were kismesises and broke it off or if they never got that far in the first place. Eridan being the hottest iron means that (at least, if he's right) if she had a kismesis, he would have been it, but we don't know she had one at all during that period. I originally assumed they were from how Eridan talked, but he's prone to melodrama and also desperate to believe he has a chance.
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Date: 2012-05-19 05:15 pm (UTC)I'd agree that it wasn't just empty bluffing. It was, quote, "an elaborate ruse to be in cahoots with [Vriska] again" (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004357). And I think it's exaggerating a bit to say that they were the same person. Now, since I can't seem to find the exact quote, I risk inaccuracy here, but what was said was that Eridan was introduced as having a genocide complex in his profile. This doesn't necessarily mean he was ready to act on this, or about to murder any of his friends at that time.
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption [...] so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
I never got the feeling that Eridan was fully invested in the hemospectrum, merely pretending to be for the sake of appearances. As Feferi points out, he's been underwater only a few days in his entire life. Outside of Feferi, all of his quadrants and potential quadrants are landwellers, even before SGRUB. His 'nubby-horned' bro with whom he spends all his time gossiping is a landdweller. In fact, there's no evidence that he's spent any time talking to other sea dwellers at all. In his log with Rose here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004705) he seems to take fish puns as a sign of nobility and assures Rose that he knows a lot of them. In reality, Eridan gets annoyed when Feferi uses fish puns, which could be seen as a sign that he doesn't feel as close to his seadweller brethren as he tries to appear.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by [...] killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
Eridan felt abandoned by the other trolls. Even Karkat, who had promised to visit him, didn't do so. Mind you, this was Eridan's fault and stemmed from the his angel-killing, and THAT was a wrong thing to do*. Still, if he had not felt so abandoned, he probably would not have decided to join Jack.
(*On the topic of the angels, there are plenty of hints that they are more than simple consorts, or at the very least, that Eridan thought they there were less than innocuous. Sollux mentions them as mythical demons with awful feathery wings that Paradox Space uses to usher in the end [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003982]. Doc Scratch mentions here [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005532] that they took Eridan under their wings, and that Eridan learned to destroy hope with their light. Eridan's land is called the Land of Wrath and Angels. If he was never supposed to kill them, and thus, the angels were never supposed to get angry, then what is the Wrath in his land's title referring to? There is the question of what kind of land quest a Prince (Destroyer) of Hope would get. And finally, there is the question of this prophesied lord of all angels [http://pastebin.com/qsT2MkQ8, search 'lord of all angels'] that Eridan appears to believe is Bec Noir. What this all adds up to isn't clear as of yet, but it is at least possible that Eridan had other reasons for his angel killings.)
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Date: 2012-05-19 06:47 pm (UTC)This doesn't necessarily mean he was ready to act on this, or about to murder any of his friends at that time.
No, he was pretty laid-back about it, and I think he never intended to kill his friends in particular. They were just acceptable collateral damage. He may even have been willing to spare them if he had an apocalyptic weapon that would kill everyone but them.
It's just this is a very low standard to hold someone to, especially when it's not even certain.
I never got the feeling that Eridan was fully invested in the hemospectrum, merely pretending to be for the sake of appearances.
No, he's very invested in it because he defines himself as superior to everyone through it. He's also hypocritical on the matter, but that's not the same thing as not believing it in the first place.
But is really a subject for the later logs.
Eridan felt abandoned by the other trolls. Even Karkat, who had promised to visit him, didn't do so.
What people seem to forget here is he didn't visit the others either. But again, that's a later issue. I'm not, at the moment, particularly concerned with the Jack thing, merely the point that not killing Karkat is not a significant event.
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Date: 2012-05-19 05:15 pm (UTC)You present Eridan as being a very careful schemer in your example AU. In which case, wouldn't it have made more sense to tell Feferi he doesn't want to kill lowbloods, then secretly carry out his plan to kill them (the easy and low-risk plan of pretending to be incapacitated long enough for Feferi's lusus to get hungy), rather than the other way around, as he did in canon?
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree [...] he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
First of of all, I have to object to your assertion that Eridan was only interested in Sollux to force Feferi to auspicticize in order to break their quadrant. That is Feferi's opinion of the situation, but Terezi offers another (http://pastebin.com/PqmBB6Hh):
TEREZI: 1 4M NOT M3D14T1NG B3TW33N YOU TWO!
TEREZI: S3R1OUSLY, COULD YOU M4K3 YOUR 4DV4NC3S 4NY MOR3 OBV1OUS 3R1D4N?
TEREZI: 1F YOUR3 W4X1NG 4SH3N FOR M3, F1NE, 1... GU3SS 1M FL4TT3R3D???
TEREZI: BUT H3S TOT4LLY NOT 3V3N 1NT3R3ST3D 1N TH3 TYP3 OF
TEREZI: UH...
TEREZI: R1V4LRY YOU W4NT W1TH H1M, OK?
In her opinion, Eridan is ashen for her and Sollux. So whose opinion is more likely? When Feferi was Eridan's moirail, she completely missed that he was flushed for her. On the other hand, Terezi is noted for her ability to read people and sense when they are trying to deceive her. So there's that.
There is also tha fact that Eridan mentions that he has told Feferi repeatedly that that he is done with her. (http://pastebin.com/qsT2MkQ8, search: 'wwere royalty you and i'). Feferi doesn't deny this (in fact, remembering that is is true seems to calm her down a bit) and at any rate, it would make no sense to lie to someone who was there. The combination of him desperately seeking out quadrants and repeating telling Feferi that he is over her implies that he was trying to get over her, albeit in an unhealthy, desperate manner.
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Date: 2012-05-19 06:57 pm (UTC)Not at all. You don't have to be a schemer to tell that joining a revolution aiming for equality isn't in your best interests when you're on top already, completely support the current system, and the revolution is probably going to be wiped out. Eridan is obviously a terrible schemer. He doesn't even think to tell Kanaya he doesn't intend to kill her before bringing up the doomsday device.
I think he'd either be Dualscar 2.0 against whoever's leading the revolution, presumably Feferi or Karkat. If the kids manage to stay friends, they could probably beg information from him if he's convinced it's totally safe for him. Only if he's slighted by the current rulers and convinced the revolution can win can I see him throwing in with the revolution, and it'd be as much out of spite as anything.
I have to object to your assertion that Eridan was only interested in Sollux to force Feferi to auspicticize in order to break their quadrant.
I don't think he's only interested. Going with the assumption he wants ashen relationships because he's aiming for real blackrom, he wants to get Feferi no longer red with Sollux so he can then end up with Sollux as a kismesis and Feferi as matesprit.
The relevant point is, Eridan is willing to try to force people out of quadrants they're happy with despite saying here he knows that's wrong.
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Date: 2012-05-19 05:18 pm (UTC)The only other explicit ashen request that I can think of was the one to Kanaya. In addition, to what I have already said before regarding Vriska's relationship with Eridan, the fact that she actually did complete the doomsday device implies that she had every intention of meeting with him. Hence other than Terezi and Sollux (which Eridan agrees was rather pathetic on his part), I'm not sure of the many examples of this that you are pointing to.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis [...] and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
The situation with Feferi comes off more as Eridan having accidentally started a pale relationship with her, and then being too nervous to correct the situation. As stated here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004301), it is common for a flushed advance to be mistaken for pale one. In this conversation (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004243) Eridan's advice about being 'savvvvy' about how you define yourself, lest you 'splash into the moirail zone' almost certainly comes from experience. Not to mention, Eridan was NOT waiting for Feferi to come to him; as stated here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004349) he always wanted to tell Feferi how he felt, and 'end these emotional theatrics'.
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The murders of Kanaya and Feferi weren't merely because they were in his way mind you. In both cases, it is clear that they were trying to kill him. I'm not saying that he killed them in self-defense, because I think that there were less lethal responses he could have made, like knocking them out or running away. I'm more inclined to think that it was the sight of seeing them turn on him that caused him to kill them. He was acting emotionally.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care [...] getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
I've already covered the doomsday device thing above, so moving on. Part of the reason that Kanaya gets so annoyed with Eridan is because he keeps insisting that she has a crush on Vriska, which she denies. He even tells her that she tends to lie to herself. Despite his ashen badgering, I believe he really did want her to pursue a flushed relation ship with Vriska, based on his reaction to being turned down. After being rejected, he continues to keep a friendly face to her, and takes her teasing rather well, despite no longer having anything to gain from the conversation. Based on his reactions to people rejecting him later on, where he would become angry or self-pitying, if he were really set having Kanaya as his auspictice, one would expect him to be at least upset. One might argue that this is because he had nothing to gain from becoming upset, but then, he had nothing to gain from becoming upset about Feferi or Terezi either.
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Date: 2012-05-19 07:43 pm (UTC)...you just mentioned both Terezi and Feferi. That's three people right there, and all of them make it clear that he's been on the subject for a while and won't take no for an answer. It's possible, even likely, that he's badgered the other kids as well and it just doesn't come up because there wasn't space for it.
the fact that she actually did complete the doomsday device implies that she had every intention of meeting with him
She's been giving him ones for a while. She just isn't giving him ones that work, and doesn't seem to care much about it.
The situation with Feferi comes off more as Eridan having accidentally started a pale relationship with her, and then being too nervous to correct the situation.
That's what I said. Therefore, from what we see it could be that Eridan gets nervous confessing feelings in general and the ashen thing is just him trying to get around that, or it could be he happened to just be nervous in that one relationship, and the ashen thing is him trying to strongarm someone into a relationship.
Not to mention, Eridan was NOT waiting for Feferi to come to him; as stated here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004349) he always wanted to tell Feferi how he felt, and 'end these emotional theatrics'.
Except he didn't. Whatever he said, what he actually did was sit there and keep pretending he was her moirail while complaining to everyone else about it. Eridan's actions often don't match up with what he says.
The murders of Kanaya and Feferi weren't merely because they were in his way mind you. In both cases, it is clear that they were trying to kill him.
After he decided to kill everyone first.
I'm not saying that he killed them in self-defense, because I think that there were less lethal responses he could have made, like knocking them out or running away. I'm more inclined to think that it was the sight of seeing them turn on him that caused him to kill them. He was acting emotionally.
HE WAS GOING TO JOIN JACK AND KILL ALL OF THEM.
Part of the reason that Kanaya gets so annoyed with Eridan is because he keeps insisting that she has a crush on Vriska, which she denies.
Yes, but most of it is probably for the reason she gives immediately:
CA: so help me out tell her to talk to me i think she blocked me you got to
GA: Why Do I Got To
GA: I Dont Got To And Every Time You Take My Help For Granted I Feel Like I Got To A Little Less
He treats people badly and doesn't care when they say so.
Despite his ashen badgering, I believe he really did want her to pursue a flushed relation ship with Vriska
I think so too. He just cared far more about his own relationship and saw nothing wrong with trapping her in the wrong quadrant if it meant he got what he wanted.
The fact he doesn't seem to hold a grudge could be seen as a positive trait, though it strikes me as rather off, and I don't think it makes up for being willing to put himself ahead of her in the first place
despite no longer having anything to gain from the conversation.
That's what I said. I don't think he's always manipulative, only when he stands to gain. What I'm trying to point out is that Eridan can be extremely friendly with someone and still think nothing of hurting them when he does stand to gain.
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Date: 2012-05-19 05:19 pm (UTC)CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip [...] Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Eridan and Karkat appear to have a strange relationship when it comes to insults. When Karkat opens his memo (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005261) shortly after Eridan's murders, he refers to what he thinks is Karkat joking about black-hitting on him as as their 'ironic repartee', and notes that no-one else gets their sense of humour. Karkat, for his part, calls Eridan an asshole and a hipster douche, even back before SGRUB. For that matter, Eridan seems to have insulting nicknames for everyone and everything, referring to his superior seadweller race as 'brinesuckers'.
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods [...] (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
I wouldn't say that Eridan doesn't care about people's opinion of him. In the case of Vriska at least, he worries here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004357) that she is getting bored of him, and is only pretending to be in cahoots to make fun of him behind his back. When Feferi breaks up with him, the reason he assumes for the break-up is not that she doesn't appreciate what he has done for her (in fact, interestingly enough, his work in keeping her lusus fed is never mentioned in any conversation between them), but that she is sick of him. Furthermore, when discussing Nepeta's rejection of Eridan in Kanaya: Return to the Core, Karkat says something strange:
KARKAT: HER DISINTEREST IN YOUR ADVANCE WASN’T A REFLECTION ON YOU AT ALL.
KARKAT: COME ON, WE TALKED ABOUT THIS.
Now, Karkat has been Eridan's friend since before SGRUB, and the two talk so frequently that Feferi calls Karkat his 'nubby-horned bro' and feels that Eridan spends more time talking to him than her. Eridan's attempts at garnering attention are usually rather obvious, and Karkat, while he may not be as much of a expert in reading people as Terezi, is not an idiot. If Eridan had merely been whining to get attention, Karkat would have called him out on that. Those lines imply that Eridan has been blaming himself for Nepeta's rejection, and that further, these were genuine sentiments, rather than simple pity-mongering
In fact, Eridan seems very insecure about people's perception of him, which may offer an explanation for all the overbearing, over-the-top behaviour.
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Date: 2012-05-19 07:49 pm (UTC)Uh, what you're saying here is just that Eridan ignores or doesn't register people being angry at him. And he has insulting nicknames for everything because he insults everything. Remember the whole "even the kittyshipper girl turned him down" whine? He's an asshole and he blows off Karkat by assuming Karkat can't possibly mean it.
In fact, Eridan seems very insecure about people's perception of him, which may offer an explanation for all the overbearing, over-the-top behaviour.
He cares when it impacts him. He doesn't ask himself why the other person feels like that, just that it's not the way that makes them act like he wants, and he thinks it's terribly unfair of them.
I do think he shifts during the game when there's fewer people to interact with and they're all busy, but that's for later logs.
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Date: 2012-05-19 05:20 pm (UTC)CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
Bizzarely enough, and many have disagreed with me, I actually read those lines as being empathetic towards Kanaya, thanks to those preceding them:
GA: Yeah
GA: Shes Just A Concerned Moirail
GA: Looking Out For You
GA: Thats All
CA: awwww fuck
CA: see im tellin you
CA: you got to play your cards right
GA: What Do You Mean
CA: if youre not savvvvy about howw you define yourself to people
CA: you can just splash into the moirail zone before you knoww wwhich wways upwward
The fact that Eridan appears to be warning Kanaya to play her cards right and be careful about how she defines herself to people implies that he recognises that she is in the same situation with Vriska that he is in with Feferi. Hence, "awwww fuck" would appear to be sympathy towards Kanaya's situation, given how pleased he came off as earlier that she was actually going to pursue Vriska in the flushed quadrant. Mind you, part of why Kanaya is so exasperated with Eridan is his constant assertions that she is flushed for Vriska. In fact, it is the very line where he promises to leave her alone (so that she can pursue Vriska) that causes her to praise Feferi's patience.
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Date: 2012-05-19 05:21 pm (UTC)Does Eridan have "issues" with moirallegiance? There are two places where he implies moirallegiance is 'less' than the concuspicent quadrants. The first is in his conversation with Kanaya, where he calls it the 'moirail zone'. This doesn't necessarily refer to an opinion that the pale quadrant is 'less' than the flushed quadrant, but to the apparently common problem of being in a pale relationship with someone you are actually flushed for. In addition to the problem of a flushed advance being mistaken for a pale one mentioned in the in-comic explanation of the pale quadrant, Kanaya also mentions that her relationship with Vriska is "Not Really Red Enough" here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004467)Karkat, who distinctly does not believe that the pale quadrant is inferior to the red, responds
FCG: HAHA, WELL ISN'T THAT ALWAYS THE CASE?
FCG: STORY AS OLD AS TIME.
implying the the 'moirail zone' is far from Eridan-specific.
The second instance where he disparages moirallegiance is during his breakup with Feferi, where he calls it a shithole quadrant. Something you need to know about Eridan here: his response to being rejected or dumped by somebody is to either deny or downplay his romantic interest in them. He does it all the time:
Sollux: first as if this scum is evven wworthy of a rivvalry wwith me
Feferi: and second as if im not totally DONE wwith you like i havve TOLD you REPEATEDLY
Nepeta: i know kar its not evven the point im ovver that embarrassment
Jade: CA: [the person who was hitting on you] couldvve been anyone CA: lets not get distracted by your sad league of suitors and their flushed desperations
Vriska: oh as if im not so ovver it please spare me your disdain mindfang
Karkat**: i mean yeah obvviously i kneww you wwerent serious
When he calls moirallegiance a shithole quadrant, Feferi has just told Eridan that taking care of him and keeping him out of trouble was draining to her. In light of the above, he was probably trying to downplay his feelings about being dumped and being called a terrible moirail by claiming that he never needed to be taking care of in the first place. Note that he doesn't actually call moirallegiance a 'shit-hole quadrant' until after Feferi refuses to rethink their break-up. Before that, Eridan was begging her not to break it off. Is this a mature way to respond to being broken-up with? No it is not, but the thing is, few of the 13-year old trolls are very mature about their unrequited crushes. Consider Kanaya, who passive-aggressively avoids Vriska throughout the game and takes out her jealously of Tavros by cutting him in half. Or Karkat, who tries to schedule Dave and Terezi's black and red feelings without Terezi's permission or knowledge. Or even Vriska's entire situation with Tavros.
(**As an aside, the popular opinion of Karkat's last conversation is that Eridan was constantly hitting on Karkat. To me, however, the whole thing reads like an episode of Three's Company. Eridan begins the conversation thinking that Karkat is joking with him due to the mention of a magic wand. The only reason he thinks Karkat is black-hitting on him is because Karkat says he wants to fillet Eridan with his sickle, and since Eridan knows of no other reason for Karkat to be upset with him, he takes this as a black confession. After that, his romance-related statements have a half-joking tone to them, and it is implied that the two hit on each other ironically all the time. Note that Karkat asks
CCG: IS THIS REAL, ARE YOU BEING IRONIC OR SOMETHING, I CAN'T EVEN TELL ANYMORE
If hitting on each other ironically was never a part of their conversations, why would Karkat even wonder if Eridan is being ironic? The use of the word 'anymore' implies that there was a point [probably pre-SGRUB] at which Eridan was less desperate and Karkat could take the romantic advances as part of their usal 'ironic repartee'.)
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Date: 2012-05-19 05:22 pm (UTC)I will have to disagree with you on whether or not Eridan was changing. Say what you will, but before SGRUB, the fast majority of his friends were landdwellers, his doomsday devices always seemed to mysteriously fail (and as it turns out, he had a far more efficient way of killing landdwellers all along), and he admits to becoming fond of some of them (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004348), in a situation where admitting so didn't improve his argument. This and the fact that he turned out much better in an alternate timeline, as you acknowledge above, implies that he was gradually changing, but the timeline where his story had a happy ending was vetoed by "GIANT FUCKING SQUID".
[Wow, I apologise for how long this became!]
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Date: 2012-05-19 09:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-20 02:46 am (UTC)And perhaps since few people actually like canon Eridan, people have freer range to rewrite him into whatever character tropes they like without worrying too many people will complain about ruining their favorite character.
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Date: 2012-05-20 07:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-21 02:34 am (UTC)Woobie Eridan's been annoying me for some time too and being reminded of how common it is to ship him with the people who've made it clear they have no interest in him just because he's interested in them got on my last nerve.
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Date: 2012-08-06 05:31 pm (UTC)i have a lot of eridan feelings and this is pretty much the greatest thing
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Date: 2012-08-10 04:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-07-20 11:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-07-24 01:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-09-06 05:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-09-11 03:11 am (UTC)