Trainwreck

[farla]

So Anoh mentions to me that a friend of his is going to debate with me over "global warming, Bush, and the sports-crazy world setting the stage for fascism", otherwise known as "basically everything I mentioned on the forum".

I find something unsettling about it because it's always a bad sign if someone disagrees with all of what I say - usually it means they hate me personally and are just looking for an excuse. But, I rationalize, my opinions do tend to tie together and they're generally along liberal lines, meaning that he could just be Republican.

Anyway, this was on January 4th. Anoh says his friend will start a thread tomorrow or so.

He doesn't give the account name, and I wonder if that means his friend is starting an account just to argue with me, but I figure I'm just being paranoid. I avoid names a lot too when it's easier, and besides, if you want to stay out of drama, and your friend hasn't actually moved yet, maybe he's not naming the friend in case his friend wants to back out and doesn't want me to have grudge over it.

Interestingly, at least one of Anoh's already-on-FFN friends hates me, meaning if this is that person or a mutual friend, my mostly unfounded suspicion about this being over something personal becomes less unfounded.

By the time I email back, it's January 6th, and the friend hasn't shown up. Eh. I mention this, wondering if the friend has backed out (as being convinced of my rightness after rereading the threads seems mildly implausible).

I'm told he's preparing something.

Whenever I hear this, it's a bad sign. I don't "prepare something" when dealing with a random person I want a discussion with. I lay out my basic side and wait to see what they say. I wouldn't prepare something that takes days and days of work unless I had a massive grudge against them and was trying to cause problems.

Anoh adds he doesn't know the friend's penname, just his real name, meaning a) Yes, the guy is getting an account just to bother me and b) there is a really, really good chance he's a mutual friend of the other one that hates me.

It is really creepy when the world justifies your paranoia.

Anoh says the guy should put up a thread Monday, which will be the 8th.

I email back, asking if the guy has a grudge against me - if I know in advance, it's easier to decide how to respond. (People with grudges will not accept any fact you say because they don't care and it's you speaking. It's best to confront them immediately about this, politely, and work it out. However, doing the same thing to someone acting similar, but without a grudge, makes them understandably touchy because you're acting like the only reason anyone could disagree is personal issues.)

I'm told there's no grudge, which so far is the first time I hear something positive. So okay, this guy wants to argue with me about everything I've said, particularly topics I don't consider debatable AND am tired of arguing, and okay, he's gotten an account just to bother me, but hey, he's not doing it out of a grudge. I can deal with this.

Monday comes and goes. Still no thread. I again hope it'll just be dropped, because the alternative is the friend is still preparing and as I explained, that is ominous.

Finally, on the 10th (Wednesday, two days after the the latest time), a thread shows up.

The poster is Whitetip. Who joined January 4th, as in, the same day Anoh told me about this whole thing.

Whitetip doesn't lay out his argument. Instead he asks for mine. The way he frames it is pretty polite. I feel a bit iffy about "I also took note that the main way that you defeat someone in a duel of intellect is by baffling them by a verbose argument which they cannot understand, so they feel as if it is necessary to believe you." because I really do argue these things as a pastime, and he seems to be bringing this to me personally rather than just for the sake of debating. But it's pretty reasonable, and if he sees me dealing with his friend this way, especially if he doesn't agree with my points and thinks I'm just confusing people, it's completely within reason for him to dislike that.

Now, like I said, I really don't want to argue this. It's like arguing if fire is hot as far as I'm concerned. I'm willing to because I feel obligated, but if you come to me to argue, lay out your own damn argument. Especially if YOU object to MY argument, because I have no clue what you object to. Global warming is the centrist position, okay? There are a good half-dozen other positions. Some people think it's getting colder. Some people think it's staying the same temperature. Some people think it's getting warmer but global warming is still wrong, and even there, they're divided into different camps, with some saying it's part of a natural cycle, some saying it's about to get colder, some admitting global warming but saying it's not human caused.

Also, if you spend as much time reading debates and arguing, you notice that the junk science people always want to poke holes in your argument but can't present anything on their own.

But he hasn't done anything wrong yet, and he claims to have done research, which is a treasured rarity, and, well, if he's Anoh's friend he's probably a lot younger than me and might just be repeating what his parents say and there's no reason to jump someone for that.

So I'm polite. I just ask for his argument. I can figure out what camp he's in and if (okay, how much) he's working with bad information, and respond accordingly. It's a lot cleaner that way.

Three days go by. It's now the 14th. Whitetip posts just to say he's really busy and can't reply right now, but he will soon.

This is plausible but not really likely. I let it slide.

Nowehre appears and asks me if I think global warming has any solutions. (Silly Nowehre, believing a topic titled "Global Warming and Whatnot" was about global warming in general)

Damn, I think. If I reply Whitetip will be able to argue with that and put off actually thinking up his own argument.

No, I think. I'm just being paranoid. Whitetip's been perfectly reasonable and it's not fair to hold it against him that he wanted to go after my argument first. That's normal online and it is a lot easier, and he hasn't done anything wrong. Besides, I'll just reply directly to Nowehre, it won't be about how global warming is happening, and I already asked for his actual argument.

I throw some stuff out - I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about our ability even if I'm not sure about our decision-making, and I mention actual projects, some internet suggestions and my own random ideas.

Kazundo's Advocate shows up to call the discussion political. This depresses me a bit.

Then Whitetip reappears to show how foolish it is to be bothered just by someone calling global warming science political.

Also, to once again prove that you can't go wrong by assuming the worst of people.

I discover I was incorrect to be paranoid. Whitetip didn't just attack my non-argument comments to Nowehre.

For that matter, Whitetip didn't just appear within a few hours, despite the previous delays, the moment there was something to attack, as if he was waiting for a chance like that.

Nor did he just open with "And, to think..I was actually beginning to think that you were a sane person, Farla.." proving that yes, this was some sort of grudge, yes, he was never intending to be civil, yes, I shouldn't have tried to think he was a perfectly nice person who was just mistaken because god forbid he give anyone that courtesy, yes, I shouldn't have tried to assume the best of him...

But his actual responses...

This is the point I'd like to say something about wanting to cry, but I really don't. There's this sort of dead feeling that there's no point in anything. I tried to be mad about how his teachers could have let him be this ignorant, and I just thought calmly, huh, the world would be better off with them dead. There are probably other people like that too. The world would be better off with them dead. I tried to find it funny, even just in a hysterical kind of way, that he never even realized that asphalt gets hot in the summer, and I just thought, he's human. He's human and you're supposed to recognize humans by being intelligent, that's why we like dolphins and monkeys and raccoons because we see them as being like us, and we're supposed to be clever and observant and smart.

We're supposed to be able to figure these things out. God, I was this observant as a little kid. I was able to understand hot and cold when I was barely old enough to speak. I did this whole thing with blocks and explained to my parents back when my vocabulary was too limited to even make a complete sentence.

Asphalt gets hot. The white lines of paint are cooler.

Hot. Cold.

How can people be like this? How can they be people?

Comments

[wintersheir]

It's almost cute how sure Whitetip is of himself. "I'm in 7th grade! Black absorbs heat! Where's my doggie buscuit?"

[wintersheir]

*biscuit

[farla.livejournal.com]

But it's like training a puppy to shit on the floor.

Assuming he's an idiot, assuming he's just repeating what his teachers tell him, WHO ARE HIS TEACHERS? WHY?

[wintersheir]

I'm hoping that he's taking scraps of real information and completely misunderstanding them, myself. x.o

[farla.livejournal.com]

But - heat - light - it's -

My brain is just dead.

[negrek.livejournal.com]

Wow. One actual post of "debate" on his part and already I want to weep for humanity. That takes some kind of talent or something.

Anoh

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry, Farla. I didn't know you would feel so paranoid about this.

Whitetip does not have a grudge against you. I would admit it if he did.

Additionally, I thought you liked arguing. I'm wrong, so I'm really sorry.

Re: Anoh

[farla.livejournal.com]

Actually, the post is more about the way there were all these little hints something was wrong, and then it turned out I was right. That's not paranoia. That's pattern recognition.

And while he's your friend and I barely know him - he's got some kind of grudge. Everything points to this. At a guess, it's just a grudge against me because of my opinions, but you don't say "And, to think..I was actually beginning to think that you were a sane person" out of the blue. That wasn't someone who wanted a friendly discussion.

I like arguing. That was not arguing. That was someone attempting to ambush me because I don't agree with him.

Re: Anoh

[(Anonymous)]

I agree, that comment was harsh. If I had to guess why he said it, though, I still wouldn't think it was out of a grudge. I think he just found your first post reasonable, but thereafter, your posts were geared towards exactly what he was disagreeing with. I have no idea, but I think that may be what it is; knowing him.

Also, I noticed that when describing things in these entries, you're never the wrong/bad person. You're always complaining about someone else.

You conviently skipped over the one portion where Whitetip caught you contradicting yourself. You first mentioned cutting down forests in one paragraph, then proceeded to say to let them grow in the next. Of course, there's a chance we misintepreted that, but you didn't explain yourself, nor did you mention it here. So I find it likely that you made an error there.

Keleri, your joke was not funny. The fact that you find anyone significantly younger than you stupid or inferior just shows that you're not as smart as you think. When Farla describes someone here and she's covered just about all of their errors, you just come and try to shoot them down even more with your sarcastic comments. I find it hilarious that you always do that same damn thing, and you never really show an opinion of your own.

Re: Anoh

[farla.livejournal.com]

I think he just found your first post reasonable, but thereafter, your posts were geared towards exactly what he was disagreeing with. I have no idea, but I think that may be what it is; knowing him.
Basically, that's what I would consider a grudge. He has something against me for whatever reason that goes beyond debating into having issues with me personally.

Also, I noticed that when describing things in these entries, you're never the wrong/bad person. You're always complaining about someone else.
No duh. It's my livejournal.

You conviently skipped over the one portion where Whitetip caught you contradicting yourself...So I find it likely that you made an error there.
I was referring to the forest "up north" that's growing into the tundra. This wasn't clear because (amazingly) I wasn't talking to Whitetip, and because anyone who is not interested in being a jackass would have said, "Hey, I don't understand what you mean here" rather than "haha I don't understand THEREFORE YOU ARE WRONG".

If he'd gotten ANYTHING at all right, I wouldn't be making a disgusted post aabout how he doesn't know anything about the subject, you see.

The fact that you find anyone significantly younger than you stupid or inferior just shows that you're not as smart as you think.
Uh, no. Meaning no especial offense to you or you friend, it's very obvious he doesn't know anything. He doesn't make any attempt to figure out what I did say. He can't make any coherent argument on his own. All he can do is pull up nonsense that doesn't fit with what I said and crow he caught me at something. He's using the argument from ignorance - because I don't understand, you are wrong.

Re: Anoh

[(Anonymous)]

Basically, that's what I would consider a grudge. He has something against me for whatever reason that goes beyond debating into having issues with me personally.

Then you have absolutely no idea what a grudge is. He does not have any personal issues with you. He doesn't even know you. He disagrees with what you said, and yes, it is an ignorant habit of his to assume anything he doesn't understand wrong. That's not a grudge.

No duh. It's my livejournal.

Who cares? Isn't it about your experiences in general? Are you not willing at all to admit that you're not always right? It's not like you ever write about feeling guilty or anything. You just bitch about everyone.

I was referring to the forest "up north" that's growing into the tundra. This wasn't clear because (amazingly) I wasn't talking to Whitetip

It still wasn't clear. I doubt Nowehre completely understood you, either. You didn't really distinguish betweent the two forests you were talking about.

He can't make any coherent argument on his own.

He can. I have no idea why he's not, probably because he's lazy. But I've heard enough of his in-school rants about global warming (and yes, he does begin them, not attacking the existing arguement).

He's in one of the categories you mentioned earlier, the one that believes it's getting warmer but global warming is still wrong. The reason for this is because the earth has existed for billions of years, and so a trend in only the last 100 is still too small to determine it yet. Especially because the earth has gotten warmer and colder before in the past. So, the fact that it's been getting hotter in the last 100 years does not necessarily mean that it'll remain that way and the ice caps will all melt and we'll all drown.

He also mentions that even if global warming is real, it isn't completely caused by humans, which is exactly why he mentioned the eruptions of the volcanoes Toba, Tombora, and Krakatoa.

Re: Anoh

[farla.livejournal.com]

Then you have absolutely no idea what a grudge is. He does not have any personal issues with you. He doesn't even know you. He disagrees with what you said, and yes, it is an ignorant habit of his to assume anything he doesn't understand wrong. That's not a grudge.
He disagrees with me, yes. He's also snapping at me over it, spending obsessive time trying to prove me, personally, wrong, and insulting me.

Grudge - harbor ill will. It's a remarkably versatile word. If you've got a better way to refer to this, suggest one.

Who cares? Isn't it about your experiences in general? Are you not willing at all to admit that you're not always right? It's not like you ever write about feeling guilty or anything. You just bitch about everyone.
Uh, yeah.

Most people believe they're right. I believe I'm right in defiance of teachers and textbooks, so I'm likely ahead of the pack. It's my livejournal, so it's about things from my perspective, and it's public, so it's about things I want to tell other people.

Along the same lines, most of my depressed posts are when I'm feeling apathetic and generally depressed, not upset over something particular. Most of my happy posts are about feeling happy overall or finding something small that's amazing.

That's what I put in my livejournal. Feel free to start your own livejournal and write it according to your specifications.

Alternatively, consider that you're really trying to say you think I'm wrong here and should say so, rather than trying to wrap it up in something else.

It still wasn't clear. I doubt Nowehre completely understood you, either. You didn't really distinguish betweent the two forests you were talking about.
No, I certainly didn't. I was just throwing out a jumble of ideas. Anyone confused could easily have asked for more explanation for any of the things I was saying.

He can. I have no idea why he's not, probably because he's lazy.
I have a good idea why he's not making an argument, but I think you missed the key modifier "coherent" there.

If he wants to try to explain himself and continue - or start - the argument, he's free to. Otherwise, I really don't care.

Re: Anoh

[(Anonymous)]

He disagrees with me, yes. He's also snapping at me over it, spending obsessive time trying to prove me, personally, wrong, and insulting me.

A grudge is a personal resentment. Seeing as he behaves this way to anyone who disagrees with him, it's nothing personal.

That's what I put in my livejournal. Feel free to start your own livejournal and write it according to your specifications.

No thanks, there are better ways to bitch and such than on an internet journal.

Alternatively, consider that you're really trying to say you think I'm wrong here and should say so, rather than trying to wrap it up in something else.

What?

No, I certainly didn't. I was just throwing out a jumble of ideas. Anyone confused could easily have asked for more explanation for any of the things I was saying.

Well seeing as you didn't distinguish, it's not illogical to assume that you were speaking about the same forest.

If he wants to try to explain himself and continue - or start - the argument, he's free to. Otherwise, I really don't care.

Really? Because your really long journal entry and responses to my comments really do lead me to believing you haven't the slightest care.

Re: Anoh

[farla.livejournal.com]

It's perfectly reasonable for your friend to be the kind of person who generally jumps on people who disagree with him. That just means it's not only me he does this too. It doesn't negate the grudge/personal way he handled this or, for that matter, any of his previous disagreements. In sum, I stand by my word use. Also, your defending of him just makes him look worse.

What I'm saying is that when you start talking about why I didn't admit I was wrong about something, and when told it was because I wasn't wrong shift over to complain about my not admitting I'm wrong in general, it looks like you're just stuck on the first point.

Well seeing as you didn't distinguish, it's not illogical to assume that you were speaking about the same forest.
Given I talked about plural forests, actually, it was. But regardless, it's definitely both illogical and idiotic to respond with "I don't understand, so you're wrong."

And yes, I most definitely care about the trainwrecky nature of the whole affair and his rape of basic physics in his rebuttal, which was why I wrote a post on it. I just don't care what his particular version of junk science happens to be, which was why I didn't write a post on that. If he wants to restart the discussion himself and lay out his argument, he can. Otherwise, I don't care what it is.

Re: Anoh

[(Anonymous)]

It doesn't negate the grudge/personal way he handled this or, for that matter, any of his previous disagreements.

For the last time, it wasn't personal.

Also, your defending of him just makes him look worse.

I'm not trying to make him look better. I'm trying to tell you it's how he handles everybody, not you personally or particularly. I've been trying to convince you that he's not begrudged against you.

What I'm saying is that when you start talking about why I didn't admit I was wrong about something, and when told it was because I wasn't wrong shift over to complain about my not admitting I'm wrong in general, it looks like you're just stuck on the first point.

Oh, but you are wrong. You write about Whitetip, GryffindorGoddess and I as if we're all out to get you, and you're just the innocent, frightened little girl who knows everything there is to know about global warming. In all actuality, Whitetip just needs to debate someone who opposes him and won't back down. That's why I showed him the 'U Suc Continuation' thread.

Given I talked about plural forests, actually, it was.

It doesn't negate the grudge/personal way he handled this or, for that matter, any of his previous disagreements.

For the last time, it wasn't personal.

Also, your defending of him just makes him look worse.

I'm not trying to make him look better. I'm trying to tell you it's how he handles everybody, not you personally or particularly. I've been trying to convince you that he's not begrudged against you.

What I'm saying is that when you start talking about why I didn't admit I was wrong about something, and when told it was because I wasn't wrong shift over to complain about my not admitting I'm wrong in general, it looks like you're just stuck on the first point.

Oh, but you are wrong. You write about Whitetip, GryffindorGoddess and I as if we're all out to get you, and you're just the innocent, frightened little girl who knows everything there is to know about global warming. In all actuality, Whitetip just needs to debate someone who opposes him and won't back down. That's why I showed him the 'U Suc Continuation' thread.

Given I talked about plural forests, actually, it was.

You didn't describe the forests as being two of any real difference. Because of this, there's no reason to think you were talking about different forests. Sure, more than one. But can't there be a few of the same type of forest in a relatively close area? And seeing as you didn't say indicate a different type/area, making the assumption he did is within reason.

[(Anonymous)]

I guess global warmings going the same way as cigarettes. No ones going to try and change anything until hundreds of people die.

[farla.livejournal.com]

That's a good analogy.

Shame fixing global warming won't be as easy as just stopping what we're doing.

Listen Here

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, over the course of some time i have followed this whole "fued" between you and a user named whitetip, i believe. I agree with him on his statements and back him up because i fell you like to attack. Really i think you are foolish, ignorant, and annoying. You speak of the same thing i hear when i turn on liberal news, such as CNBC and CNN. You were saying you felt paranoid, but really with all due respect in my opinion you are C R A Z Y. c/b

Re: Listen Here

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with that other guy even though he spelled feud wrong. You have no point to all your sayings just reasoning that i feel are "out of left field." All you do is try to pass ur liberalistic crap on to people who want to hear it

In hopes of greater competency among my detractors.

[farla.livejournal.com]

For future reference, when you see something referring to "logging your IP address", it means the whole pretending to be two people thing isn't going to work.

Also, Whitetip, you'll need to space your posts by more than three minutes if you want people to even give you the faintest doubt. Additionally, you need to avoid writing both posts in the same distinctive style, especially if it's the same style as an earlier post with your name attached. At the least, that means writing in standard grammar, although that's probably beyond you, let alone any of the finer distinctions. Also, people rarely say "that other guy" except when they're engaged in this exact farce, for whatever reason. (And when the poster starts off detailing her precise analysis of the entire situation, including admissions of paranoia, she is least likely to fall for the trick in the first place.)

Please don't be such a coward. Make your argument over on the thread, or just move along quietly.

(PS: If I cared about the opinion of supporters, I'd have cared about your opinion in the first place. Calling in supposed believers does nothing to me.)

Re: In hopes of greater competency among my detractors.

[(Anonymous)]

that was my friend on mine the second time so ha. I guess that you are wrong and this is NOT whitetip. DUH

Re: In hopes of greater competency among my detractors.

[farla.livejournal.com]

And thusly do I prove that you were lying, dear thing. God, I love being me.

Re: In hopes of greater competency among my detractors.

[(Anonymous)]

Stop trying to talk like ur some harvard professor

Re: In hopes of greater competency among my detractors.

[(Anonymous)]

But i must add that i dont mean anything i say on a personal level just on the method you use to pass your point across

Re: In hopes of greater competency among my detractors.

[farla.livejournal.com]

This is actually just how I talk. Among some of us, more complex sentence structures are easily pulled off at our whim, not something we have to strain our small brains to manage.

If you'd like me to use a simpler, less condescending tone, you probably shouldn't have come to troll in my livejournal.