Shipping Olympics

[farla]

It's a bunch of fic! It was hard voting for only three, I wished there was some sort of individual voting on each fic option. There were many that were awesome, and some that were less awesome but still good enough that they deserved to be told they were pretty awesome.

I have many THOUGHTS and OPINIONS on things I noticed that I probably can't say because this is a happyfun celebration full of pairing equality. I'm tempted to just write it all up anyway and wait for the thing to end before posting it.

Comments

[keltenaasule.livejournal.com]

The majority of the entries were definitely way above what I expected in quality; it really was difficult to choose just three when they had such varied focuses and executions. At least the scores aren't really the point of the event.

I'm not sure why people ever wouldn't appreciate a little concrit, though. Of course they're doing this for fun and teamwork as well as exploring pairings, but isn't that why people generally write anyway? It seems to me like the creators would appreciate criticism if it's clearly meant to be helpful. The entries are final for the competition, yes, but it still helps for the future, even including future entries in the HSO. (Or is there actually a rule against that and I forgot?)

[farla.livejournal.com]

Well, we had to all sign the no-wank policy, and if there's one thing that brings wank, it's crit.

Especially when some of what I want to say is stuff on storyline. And some of the stuff on storyline relates to pairing. And some of the stuff on pairing relates to how convincing it was. And how convincing it was relates to pairing bashing and...

ARG and much of what I want to say would directly relate to why I did or didn't think the entry worked BUT they don't want any fighting at all and criticism is tricky at the best of times.

[keltenaasule.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's true that much of fandom is pretty notoriously bad at taking any kind of crit. (I'd argue that someone leaving crit would not actually be the one starting any wank that resulted, but then those kinds of technicalities are probably ignoring the main "don't start wank, period" point.)

I guess what it would come down to is how good everyone involved is at taking crit, and you're right that a purposefully wank-free multishipping celebration probably isn't the best place to make an assumption on that. It just makes me sad to see situations where offering constructive criticism isn't worth the backlash.

Writing it up and posting it later does sound like a pretty good compromise, at least.

[farla.livejournal.com]

I don't even mind the backlash myself, I just don't want to ruin the lives of the poor mods.

(This fandom is full of angels compared to my normal one, but I've never seen a fandom that was actually good with concrit.)

[keltenaasule.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the mods have been amazing in getting all this together and organized; they deserve to have things kept under control.

Homestuck is quite a nice fandom from (most of) my experience, though I've never really seen anything horrific anywhere; I just wish the shipping wars would die down. But there does seem to be this attitude in our culture, at least on the internet, that it's mean and obnoxious to tell someone what's wrong with their writing (or any creative output). I've spent some time in roleplaying on LJ, and they're definitely no better about it there.

Out of curiosity, what's your normal fandom?

[farla.livejournal.com]

Pokemon fandom. We suck. The only good thing I can say is that the ship wars had the decency to stay on their side of the internet where I could ignore them. Homestuck is all shipping all the time.

I think the concrit problem is one of those bad feedback loops. The less people give it, the more someone feels singled out by getting it. And the more people bite their tongue and try to keep what they say positive, the more people will assume mild criticism is niceness speak for that it was complete garbage. It's definitely reinforced by culture at large, but fandom is capable of making its own mores on other issues, so it would be able to here as well if people wanted it to.

[keltenaasule.livejournal.com]

Pokemon fandom never gave me any trouble, but then I was in a very specific group of a huge fandom and didn't venture into the scary parts. With any gigantic fandom, you're bound to get at least some insanity.

Shipping really is everywhere, though, in most fandoms really, and despite being a huge shipper myself the focus on romance makes me unhappy. There's anything wrong with writing what you like, but not only is focus on other aspects rare but platonic relationships get (intentionally or unintentionally) shoved completely to the side. Gah.

Yeah, that makes sense. On the internet, anyone giving real concrit is the odd one out, no matter whether the person receiving it is thrilled or furious. I don't mind the compromise of just framing criticism somewhat nicely, especially when it means the person I'm criticizing will actually listen, but the extent to which fandom expects everyone to walk on eggshells is just ridiculous.

[farla.livejournal.com]

I hang out on FFN and tell people their grammar is bad and their plot has holes in it, so it's pretty much endless madness. Also, I'm of the "pikachu is not a proper noun, don't capitalize it" camp, which turns out to be the wank that absolutely never ends.

I always thought I was more live and let live about shipping, but god I miss gen fic. And plots.

I've pretty much burnt out on the nice criticism thing. I'm relatively nice in Homestuck because I was only bothering to comment on fic I actually liked over on AOOO, but I'm leery of trying to softball things. It seems like a good idea but every time I've seen people try it, it turns into this quagmire where authors overreact to nicer and nicer comments, because everyone eventually realizes "but you have a minor problem here" means "there's a huge problem here, but I'm trying phrase it nicely", and then it ends with all the neurosis of LJ fandom, where people are scared to comment positively at all for fear the author will interpret it as an insult.

(Also because I get neurotic myself trying to figure out if someone is trying to be nice about the fact my story is a failure in every way. Somehow just being told directly that yes, a failure in every way, is less stressful than uncertainty. Then I can just decide if I believe them or not, instead of worrying over if that's what they meant.)

[keltenaasule.livejournal.com]

Oh god, FF.net. I do look there sometimes but it's like slogging through a haystack made of needles that are all impossible to thread. (Or... something? That simile ended in a different place than it started.) And... the thought of excessive wank over capitalizing fictional species names is making me want to go sit in the middle of a shipping battlefield for the relative sanity of it.

Yeah; I've never minded that some pairings are everywhere, but I have grown to mind pairings in general being everywhere. To the point where I'm almost glad one of my favorite games ever has no fandom simply because it means no one will stifle my beloved platonic relationships with romance. Then again, if people would just not put it as the main focus of absolutely everything there would be no problem; I like pointless fluff sometimes but not when it's the only fic there is.

I can understand that; it's a pretty fine line, and I never quite know if it's worse to have someone brush off my criticism completely as flaming or ignore what I actually said because part of it was nice. (AO3 at least seems better than FF.net on crit in general, from what I've seen, but there's still always the one lunatic who makes physical threats over someone writing a pairing they don't like.) I mean, I have a very negative gut reaction to even light criticism myself, so I can get that it hurts sometimes, but there's no way that should equate to "no one should give crit".

(That is one problem with beating around the bush in any situation, definitely. I spend a lot of time in real life situations working out how to say things directly without being insensitive, and it's so frustrating sometimes.)

[farla.livejournal.com]

It's kind of amazing. When I first started the fight I had no idea it would be a big deal. I just thought it was correct and more readable. I mean, there's so many other great things to argue about, like if Ash is a mary sue who only stupid kids like or if the stupid ones are the OT writers and exactly how unfairly persecuted innocent dark pokemon are and which generation is the worst and what pokemon are overused...

I think Homestuck is particularly bad with the fluff because everyone's scared of being jossed. They can't figure out the plot or guess where it's going, and even if they can they probably can't write it faster than it'll get resolved in canon. But a fic where two characters realize their feelings? Lot easier.

AOOO has shown more sanity, but then, I'm not sure how much is just being barely mature enough to avoid wank (and that could be in part because everything has to happen in public, so the authors try to behave). The rare heavy criticism I've seen was met with brushoffs.

I wish there was some sort of label added to say what sort of review an author was okay with. I suggested it there ages ago, but I suppose anything standardized is not really compatible with their user-defined-everything style.

I have a negative reaction to criticism on the first go, then I can come back later and be fine. I think that's why it ends up worse if I can't tell if it's meant to mean something's awful, I can't go through the acceptance stage properly.

[keltenaasule.livejournal.com]

That seems to be the thing with practically any fandom, on a broader sense. Does the Pokemon fandom think about all that, or ponder any of the world-building questions, etc.? Not the impression I've gotten much, though there are of course great exceptions. Does the Homestuck fandom make their own barely-coherent but awesome plots, or speculate into details of Sburb? Not the majority, because they're more interested in making Karkat flushed for Eridan or something similar (and often without even delving much into why). I get that it's harder to write something more thoughtful, but I don't get why people rarely want to try in spite of that. It's not like it's a huge chance to take; it could be an incomprehensible mess, or end up contradicting canon, but is that really hurting anyone much?

Yeah, and then there usually is less insanity in smaller environments anyway by my experience. But yeah, it would definitely be nice in general if people could just say what they honestly thought in a relatively polite manner and everyone could react reasonably. Sigh.

That's definitely a good idea, I agree; one thing I miss on deviantArt is that it used to have an option when submitting a work to say what kind of criticism, if any, you wanted. It actually got me some thoughtful comments when I specifically requested crit, whereas I can count on one finger the truly thoughtful reviews I've received on FF.net.

Vagueness is never your friend, honestly. I would say there's a definite difference with sounding like you're trying to hide your complaints vs. giving real criticism as well as encouragement, but I can understand your point of view; I have a habit myself of taking anything remotely neutral as the first sign of the apocalypse if I'm nervous.

[farla.livejournal.com]

Some of Pokemon fandom does discuss how the world works and interesting things, but it's always been a disappointingly small chunk. Homestuck fandom, I think, is hampered by lacking a good place for meta - it's complex enough to need the discussion, but focusing on any topic works better if it can have its own space, and it's scattered around in update threads instead.

Vagueness is never your friend, honestly. I would say there's a definite difference with sounding like you're trying to hide your complaints vs. giving real criticism as well as encouragement

Oh, there is, but it can be hard for the person getting it to always tell the difference, especially when the former's deliberately trying to found like the latter. I know I've seen enough examples of the latter to copy the sound of it, and then I know that if I can, then a reviewer of mine could.

I'd say that the best sort of review is what you're talking about. And mostly, I'd probably interpret it as you say, but the more I thought sparing my feelings was a factor, the more unsure I'd be. Have you ever seen the handwringing over gift exchanges? Because everyone's supposed to be extremely, extremely nice and praise the results, authors spend their time stressing about the fact someone said it was great, but not really really great so maybe they didn't actually like it, or else the fact that they said it was really really great because maybe they're emphasizing to hide how much they didn't like it? And it all seems ridiculous, until you see the commenters having the exact same discussion on how to hide the fact they didn't like a story.

[keltenaasule.livejournal.com]

I find that that's true in almost every fandom. For everyone who loves the unique, fascinating aspects, there are people who prefer to just do the same things every fandom under the sun can do. To each their own, but it's still too bad that the former group isn't more of a majority most of the time.

Yes, that's true. In the end, I think no matter what you do to sidestep one issue with tone, reception, or anything else, you'll run into at least one more. My policy on most situations of that kind is to find the best middle ground possible (blame a year studying Dialectical Behavioral Therapy), but I can see how it could also make sense to just give the criticism as-is and hope the writer receiving it can sort it out themselves.

All that second-guessing does make a mess of good intentions, which is a strong point against sugar-coating opinions. Then again, someone being nice in a review doesn't actually make anyone feel insecure; that's just them interpreting it that way. So while that might be the end result, it's caused at least as much by people over-thinking others' reactions and the general attitude surrounding the fandom/gift exchange/etc. that they're participating in. In the end, someone could leave a completely honest review of a fic they didn't find any flaws in, and the author might still take it as the reviewer trying to spare their feelings.

[ember-reignited.livejournal.com]

Not everyone there is mature.

[farla.livejournal.com]

Ah. The dogpile factor. That's definitely going to be an issue now that readers can easily comment on each other's comments. And worse, the anon option means authors can very easily pretend to be someone else and defend themselves without attaching their name to their behavior.

I'm actually somewhat surprised it isn't being abused more yet. A lack of comments to fight over, maybe.

[ember-reignited.livejournal.com]

There really were a lot of good ones, weren't there? ^_^

I would be interesting in seeing what you have to say, if you wanted to email me. Or, in the mean time, you could go through AO3 and post your THOUGHTS and OPINIONS on all the carapace fic like you say you've been meaning to.

[farla.livejournal.com]

IT RUINED MY PLANS TO VOTE SOLELY BASED ON WHAT PAIRINGS I SUPPORT AND COMPLETELY IGNORE THE POINT OF THE FEST IN FAVOR OF MAKING IT INTO A SHIP POPULARITY CONTEST. ALL OF MY PLANS. ALL OF THEM.

My thoughts are not necessarily worthy of real elaboration yet, it merely bothers me I can't just babble as is my custom. Maybe when the fest finishes I'll have a decent treatise.

...but yes I need to sit down and do the carapace fic. Mockingjay is the hellbook.

[ember-reignited.livejournal.com]

I know, right??? One of the teams I ended up voting for was not a ship I've ever wanted to support in any way shape or form, but the entry was just that good!

Well, like I said, if you want a place for that, there's always my email. I enjoy your babbling, and sometimes I enjoy babbling back. Either way, I look forward to hearing your thoughts at some point!

[farla.livejournal.com]

I may have voted for the same one...it was not exactly the ship I planned to not vote for with the greatest smug prejudice, but it was near the top of the list.

^^ If I can kick my thoughts into something useful, I'll email. Checking over it quick, I don't see any real trends beyond that I'm mean to artists. I was trying to figure out why some of the entries pinged as totally IC and some of them as could-be-anybody, but I'm not sure I can untangle that.