Eridan Meta, Part One/Who Knows
May. 18th, 2012 05:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
farlaSo, I was reading a perfectly decent Eridan fanfic one day. No woobie apologism or anything. It had Eridan going underwater to meet Feferi and feed her lusus and being miserable about it, an element that's popped up in various fanfics. And suddenly I remembered that we've seen her lusus feeding before, and it never required Eridan to do any such thing, and that if he'd been visiting Feferi underwater she probably wouldn't have said he never goes underwater.
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
no subject
Date: 2012-05-19 05:15 pm (UTC)I'd agree that it wasn't just empty bluffing. It was, quote, "an elaborate ruse to be in cahoots with [Vriska] again" (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004357). And I think it's exaggerating a bit to say that they were the same person. Now, since I can't seem to find the exact quote, I risk inaccuracy here, but what was said was that Eridan was introduced as having a genocide complex in his profile. This doesn't necessarily mean he was ready to act on this, or about to murder any of his friends at that time.
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption [...] so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
I never got the feeling that Eridan was fully invested in the hemospectrum, merely pretending to be for the sake of appearances. As Feferi points out, he's been underwater only a few days in his entire life. Outside of Feferi, all of his quadrants and potential quadrants are landwellers, even before SGRUB. His 'nubby-horned' bro with whom he spends all his time gossiping is a landdweller. In fact, there's no evidence that he's spent any time talking to other sea dwellers at all. In his log with Rose here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004705) he seems to take fish puns as a sign of nobility and assures Rose that he knows a lot of them. In reality, Eridan gets annoyed when Feferi uses fish puns, which could be seen as a sign that he doesn't feel as close to his seadweller brethren as he tries to appear.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by [...] killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
Eridan felt abandoned by the other trolls. Even Karkat, who had promised to visit him, didn't do so. Mind you, this was Eridan's fault and stemmed from the his angel-killing, and THAT was a wrong thing to do*. Still, if he had not felt so abandoned, he probably would not have decided to join Jack.
(*On the topic of the angels, there are plenty of hints that they are more than simple consorts, or at the very least, that Eridan thought they there were less than innocuous. Sollux mentions them as mythical demons with awful feathery wings that Paradox Space uses to usher in the end [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003982]. Doc Scratch mentions here [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005532] that they took Eridan under their wings, and that Eridan learned to destroy hope with their light. Eridan's land is called the Land of Wrath and Angels. If he was never supposed to kill them, and thus, the angels were never supposed to get angry, then what is the Wrath in his land's title referring to? There is the question of what kind of land quest a Prince (Destroyer) of Hope would get. And finally, there is the question of this prophesied lord of all angels [http://pastebin.com/qsT2MkQ8, search 'lord of all angels'] that Eridan appears to believe is Bec Noir. What this all adds up to isn't clear as of yet, but it is at least possible that Eridan had other reasons for his angel killings.)
no subject
Date: 2012-05-19 06:47 pm (UTC)This doesn't necessarily mean he was ready to act on this, or about to murder any of his friends at that time.
No, he was pretty laid-back about it, and I think he never intended to kill his friends in particular. They were just acceptable collateral damage. He may even have been willing to spare them if he had an apocalyptic weapon that would kill everyone but them.
It's just this is a very low standard to hold someone to, especially when it's not even certain.
I never got the feeling that Eridan was fully invested in the hemospectrum, merely pretending to be for the sake of appearances.
No, he's very invested in it because he defines himself as superior to everyone through it. He's also hypocritical on the matter, but that's not the same thing as not believing it in the first place.
But is really a subject for the later logs.
Eridan felt abandoned by the other trolls. Even Karkat, who had promised to visit him, didn't do so.
What people seem to forget here is he didn't visit the others either. But again, that's a later issue. I'm not, at the moment, particularly concerned with the Jack thing, merely the point that not killing Karkat is not a significant event.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 08:08 pm (UTC)I'm a little confused as how he was lying about respecting Kanaya's feelings. He told her he would step off, and there's no indication that he ever bothered her about auspicticizing after that. I'm also a little confused as to the two things that he knows are wrong to do. One of them is clearly killing Kanaya (which I don't think he was lying about at the time); could you clarify the other? Also, I believe we are in disagreement as to the meaning of Hussie's response on Eridan. I read it as stating that Eridan was introduced as having traits that foreshadowed Murderstuck: namely, being dangerous and obsessed with genocide.
In other words, Eridan always had the potential to become his post-Murderstuck self, not that he is the exact same troll that he was during Murderstuck.
(About the rest of Hussie's statement about Eridan: if you'd asked me a few months ago about it, I would have blushed, mumbled "Death of the Author," and absconded. Recent in-comic events have caused me to rethink this response.
Hussie isn't always telling the exact, entire truth in his formspring answers. For example, when why Kanaya had to die, he responded that sometimed sad things happen in stories, even funny ones. [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40585720/Combined_Formspring_Web_Aug-28-2011.htm#mspadventures2268455672]. How sad could Hussie have possibly felt knowing that Kanaya would be alive again in a few pages?
Getting to the quote about Eridan, Hussie states that Eridan's final interpretation of the Prince role was not to fight for hope, but to destroy it [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40585720/Combined_Formspring_Web_Aug-28-2011.htm#mspadventures154128263025812338]. Taking that at face value, one would think Hussie meant that the role of a Prince is "One who fights for X," and Eridan failed his role by destroying instead, but as recent events reveal, the role of a Prince of Hope was always to destroy. There is some confusion over whether that means destroying hope or destroying with hope, but fighting for hope certainly isn't part of the role's meaning.
For these reasons, I would hesitate to take all of Hussie's formspring posts at face value.)
This doesn't necessarily mean he was ...when it's not even certain.
If Eridan was so proud and ready to commit genocide, then why lie to Feferi about the seriousness of his doomsday device search (which is explicitly stated to be an excuse to meet with Vriska)? In fact, as stated before, Eridan could have gotten his genocide without getting Feferi angry at him by agreeing with her and then pretending to be incapacitated until Gl'bgolyb got hungry. The fact that he felt the need to hide his flirting with Vriska behind a genocidal veil suggests a fear that Feferi would discover that he wasn't really as serious about genocide as he tried to appear. Eridan's behaviour suggests that he had a genocide complex and a need to follow in his heroes' footsteps that he couldn't bring himself to act on due to both Feferi's influence and the fact that he was fond of several of the landdwellers he wanted to kill.
Eridan felt abandoned by the other ... Karkat is not a significant event.
I figured Eridan was just reacting defensively. He didn't kill Karkat because Karkat didn't attack him.
But, we'll leave that as a later issue.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 11:27 pm (UTC)He knows at the opening of the conversation Kanaya is currently in a pale relationship with Vriska and more importantly, that she wants to be in a red one. He then tries to convince her she has to enter into an ashen relationship with him and Vriska. After she turns him down and makes it clear she won't do this, he says that it's wrong to try to convince people to enter into a quadrant at odds with the one they want.
In short, if he respected her feelings, he would never have asked in the first place, and certainly not pressed the issue so strongly.
There's no indication he bothered her again but neither is there much in favor for the idea he actually let it drop. Kanaya acts as if this is not the first time, down to calling what he says predictable. And by the end in the Veil he's badgering other people who did turn him down, so if he decided to start respecting Kanaya's feelings and not continuing to bother her, she's an exception to his normal behavior. Considering how irritated Kanaya still is with him by that point, I don't see much sign he's acting differently.
I'm also a little confused as to the two things that he knows are wrong to do. One of them is clearly killing Kanaya (which I don't think he was lying about at the time); could you clarify the other?
Respecting her feelings rather than try to force her into a quadrant he doesn't want, as he ends up doing with Feferi and Sollux.
In other words, Eridan always had the potential to become his post-Murderstuck self, not that he is the exact same troll that he was during Murderstuck.
Agreed. But I'm saying that potential includes a willingness to ignore other people's feelings and quadrants in favor of his own desires and a willingness to kill other people. Other factors kept this in check before that point.
Getting to the quote about Eridan, Hussie states that Eridan's final interpretation of the Prince role was not to fight for hope, but to destroy it
The question of how Eridan was, in game terms, meant to behave is far beyond the point here.
Eridan was originally cast as someone dangerous and genocidal, but those qualities were never illustrated and became easily dismissed as a joke as his whole character seemed to revolve around failed romantic aspirations for so long. But they came back, reminding us they were driving forces behind his profile.
He goes on to say that Eridan is certainly the worst kind of bastard this story has to offer. I really don't think that's comparable to not spoiling a plot twist like Kanaya coming back by saying it's sad when people die.
If Eridan was so proud and ready to commit genocide, then
Because he wasn't. I already said this. He's not doing the things he could do to kill all of them because it's balanced against not wanting to actually do something to hurt Feferi.
I figured Eridan was just reacting defensively. He didn't kill Karkat because Karkat didn't attack him.
HE HAS ALREADY DECIDED HE OR JACK WILL KILL KARKAT WHEN THEY RETURN TO KILL ALL THE SURVIVING TROLLS.