Eridan Meta, Part One/Who Knows
May. 18th, 2012 05:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
farlaSo, I was reading a perfectly decent Eridan fanfic one day. No woobie apologism or anything. It had Eridan going underwater to meet Feferi and feed her lusus and being miserable about it, an element that's popped up in various fanfics. And suddenly I remembered that we've seen her lusus feeding before, and it never required Eridan to do any such thing, and that if he'd been visiting Feferi underwater she probably wouldn't have said he never goes underwater.
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
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Date: 2012-05-19 07:43 pm (UTC)...you just mentioned both Terezi and Feferi. That's three people right there, and all of them make it clear that he's been on the subject for a while and won't take no for an answer. It's possible, even likely, that he's badgered the other kids as well and it just doesn't come up because there wasn't space for it.
the fact that she actually did complete the doomsday device implies that she had every intention of meeting with him
She's been giving him ones for a while. She just isn't giving him ones that work, and doesn't seem to care much about it.
The situation with Feferi comes off more as Eridan having accidentally started a pale relationship with her, and then being too nervous to correct the situation.
That's what I said. Therefore, from what we see it could be that Eridan gets nervous confessing feelings in general and the ashen thing is just him trying to get around that, or it could be he happened to just be nervous in that one relationship, and the ashen thing is him trying to strongarm someone into a relationship.
Not to mention, Eridan was NOT waiting for Feferi to come to him; as stated here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004349) he always wanted to tell Feferi how he felt, and 'end these emotional theatrics'.
Except he didn't. Whatever he said, what he actually did was sit there and keep pretending he was her moirail while complaining to everyone else about it. Eridan's actions often don't match up with what he says.
The murders of Kanaya and Feferi weren't merely because they were in his way mind you. In both cases, it is clear that they were trying to kill him.
After he decided to kill everyone first.
I'm not saying that he killed them in self-defense, because I think that there were less lethal responses he could have made, like knocking them out or running away. I'm more inclined to think that it was the sight of seeing them turn on him that caused him to kill them. He was acting emotionally.
HE WAS GOING TO JOIN JACK AND KILL ALL OF THEM.
Part of the reason that Kanaya gets so annoyed with Eridan is because he keeps insisting that she has a crush on Vriska, which she denies.
Yes, but most of it is probably for the reason she gives immediately:
CA: so help me out tell her to talk to me i think she blocked me you got to
GA: Why Do I Got To
GA: I Dont Got To And Every Time You Take My Help For Granted I Feel Like I Got To A Little Less
He treats people badly and doesn't care when they say so.
Despite his ashen badgering, I believe he really did want her to pursue a flushed relation ship with Vriska
I think so too. He just cared far more about his own relationship and saw nothing wrong with trapping her in the wrong quadrant if it meant he got what he wanted.
The fact he doesn't seem to hold a grudge could be seen as a positive trait, though it strikes me as rather off, and I don't think it makes up for being willing to put himself ahead of her in the first place
despite no longer having anything to gain from the conversation.
That's what I said. I don't think he's always manipulative, only when he stands to gain. What I'm trying to point out is that Eridan can be extremely friendly with someone and still think nothing of hurting them when he does stand to gain.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 08:15 pm (UTC)Well, I did say other, with the first request I was thinking of being Terezi. I also said explicit. Feferi states:
FEFERI: Don’t try to provoke )(im. It’s not like I don’t know w)(at you’re doing! You keep trying to spark a rivalry wit)( )(im to get me to auspisticize between you two, and pull us out of our quadrant!
If Eridan made an explicit ashen request to Feferi, then it seems strange for her to say that she knows what he's doing, as opposed to expressing exasperation about his constant ashen requests. Her statement makes it sound as though Eridan is trying to spark a rivalry with Sollux, and Feferi has concluded from this that he is trying to break their quadrant. Of course, the fact that he has apparently gone ashen for Terezi calls her interpretation into question. At the very least, it implies that he would have been content to have Sollux as a rival, even it that didn't result in Sollux and Feferi breaking up.
+the fact that she actually did complete the doomsday device implies that she had every intention of meeting with him
She's been giving him ones for a while. She just isn't giving him ones that work, and doesn't seem to care much about it.+
Vriska's internal narration here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004106) states:
It was tough to build, and isn't perfect yet. Luckily one of your pals nearby is pretty handy with technology. He can be tapped for parts and favors frequently.
Commenting on how tough the doomsday device was to build, noting that it isn't perfect (yet, which implies Vriska had intentions of working on it further), and considering how she can get assistance with improving it doesn't sound like something Vriska would be thinking if she didn't care much about getting the doomsday device to work. Not to mention, she isn't just giving Eridan doomsday devices in order to shut him up, she's doing it, quote, "in return for his collusion during [her] campaigns." Vriska wanted to be in cahoots with Eridan too.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 11:45 pm (UTC)It's obvious he didn't because when I say he's trying to force both of them out of the quadrant, that's what I mean. Making an ashen request isn't forcing people, just badgering. With Feferi and Sollux, Eridan isn't asking either of them, he's just acting in a way to try to get them to switch to the quadrant he wants even though neither is interested.
If you're confused about why he wouldn't, it's probably because Feferi's not exactly happy to talk to him.
Of course, the fact that he has apparently gone ashen for Terezi calls her interpretation into question.
It really, really doesn't. Eridan hits on multiple people for the same quadrant. Also, there's no sign it's even possible to go ashen for someone like that - an ashen relationship is where a third party steps in to mediate a rivalry that would otherwise become a kismesis pair, so it wouldn't even make sense for someone to have a crush on the mediating party when there's no rival.
she's doing it, quote, "in return for his collusion during [her] campaigns." Vriska wanted to be in cahoots with Eridan too.
You do realize Vriska has other reasons to want support on those campaigns, given she doesn't actually have a choice about taking part in them?
Look. They were originally rivals. Eridan has no problems with them going back to their previous level of rivalry or possibly even more of one. One of them must not want that, and since it isn't him it's got to be her. And certainly by the end in the Veil she isn't interested.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 08:16 pm (UTC)I'm assuming that we are taking the internal narrations as reflecting the character's actual thoughts? If so, then it would seem that Eridan really and truly intended to tell Feferi how he felt, and wasn't just saying so. I think that there is a difference between intending to tell Feferi how he feels and putting it off due to nerves, and "just [waiting] around wishing [Feferi would] suddenly throw herself at him".
And, in fact, he does end up telling her. And not just in response to her breaking off their moirallegiance either; even before the break-up, Eridan states:
CA: and i just spent all this time here wworryin and thinkin about stuff
CA: and i decided i havve something i wwant to tell you
CA: that ivve been meaning to get off my nub for a wwhile noww
Presumably the 'something' here is the fact that he is flushed for her.
Also, to whom does Eridan complain regarding his status as Feferi's moirail? The only shown conversation Eridan has with a third party prior to his break-up with Feferi is the pesterlog with Kanaya, and his only mention of Feferi is to ask Kanaya about what Feferi told her earlier. Was there some character who mentioned Eridan complaining to them pre-breakup? If so, I can't seem to find that conversation, although maybe if you can tell me when in the story it occurred, or with what character, I could try looking for it.
The murders of Kanaya ... KILL ALL OF THEM.
I'm not convinced that Eridan's plan focused so much on killing the other trolls as it did on salvaging a bad situation. His throught process was, 'there is no hope and everyone is going to die anyway, but maybe I can give me and Feferi some chance of survival'. For Eridan, it was a decision between stay and die with the other trolls, and leave and possibly survive with Jack. Eridan's bitterness towards the other trolls was very likely the final factor influencing his decision.
...Despite his ashen badgering, I believe ....ahead of her in the first place
I'll agree with you that badgering Kanaya to make their quadrant official is self-centered, BUT. Eridan had a good rivalry that was enjoyable to both parties. Kanaya didn't even want to admit that she was flushed for Vriska. It's understandable that Eridan would not want to give up his rivalry for something he wasn't even sure Kanaya would ever act on. Self-centered, yes, but understandable. What's more, given how much effort and worry he's put into his rivalry, being happy for Kanaya even though it meant his rivalry would likely break up afterwards is at least a little selfless and doesn't strike me as off in the least.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 11:55 pm (UTC)to whom does Eridan complain regarding his status as Feferi's moirail? The only shown conversation Eridan has with a third party prior to his break-up with Feferi is the pesterlog with Kanaya, and his only mention of Feferi is to ask Kanaya about what Feferi told her earlier.
The conversation with Kanaya is obviously not the first, because she already knows about his feelings. It's pretty likely he's also talking with Karkat because he gossips about quadrants with Karkat and because Karkat spends half the game listening to him complain about his hate/pity life.
More, that's hardly his "only" mention when it triggers extended whining about being moirailzoned.
I'm not convinced that Eridan's plan focused so much on killing the other trolls as it did on salvaging a bad situation.
When your idea of salvaging a bad situation is helping someone kill your friends, you are a bad person. Eridan tells them he is going to do this. They are the ones acting in self-defense in response to him telling them he will kill them, not Eridan.
Eridan had a good rivalry that was enjoyable to both parties.
No, it wasn't. If it was, he wouldn't be trying to get Vriska into the quadrant. They are not in a relationship by this point and Vriska shows no interest in one for the rest of the comic.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-29 03:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-29 03:20 am (UTC)Kanaya knowing Eridan's feeling feelings is hinted at by her teasing about Feferi wanting to be flushed with him. Whether she heard this from Eridan, or from some other troll, or simply figured it out on her own is never stated. Furthermore, she may or may not have simply been teasing him without knowing that Eridan was actually flushed for Feferi.
Eridan never explicitly addresses the fact that the other trolls are likely to die as a result of his actions in his last speech with Feferi. It's possible he was hoping to join Jack without having to explicitly reveal where the other trolls where, or that once there, he may have been able to talk Jack into leaving the meteor alone, or that he simply hadn't thought of the other trolls one way or another while making his plan to join Jack. Without further insight into his thoughts at the time, it's hard to say.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-01 09:01 pm (UTC)Kanaya knowing Eridan's feeling feelings is hinted at by her teasing about Feferi wanting to be flushed with him. Whether she heard this from Eridan, or from some other troll, or simply figured it out on her own is never stated. Furthermore, she may or may not have simply been teasing him without knowing that Eridan was actually flushed for Feferi.
Eridan told her. There's really no reason to make this more complex than it has to be.
Eridan shows no surprise whatsoever about her knowing (indeed, he thinks she's screwing with him when she says it, which would only make sense if he knew she knew), and given the context of the conversation with Kanaya not admitting her real feelings for Vriska, if Eridan hadn't yet admitted his feelings for Feferi, Kanaya would have mentioned that.
Eridan never explicitly addresses the fact that the other trolls are likely to die as a result of his actions in his last speech with Feferi. It's possible he was hoping to join Jack without having to explicitly reveal where the other trolls where, or that once there, he may have been able to talk Jack into leaving the meteor alone, or that he simply hadn't thought of the other trolls one way or another while making his plan to join Jack. Without further insight into his thoughts at the time, it's hard to say.
First, only if you count the part where he tells Feferi he's extending the invitation so she won't die like the rest as not explicit, as well as the part where he decides to destroy the matriorb because their species is doomed.
Furthermore. If he thought it wasn't going to result in killing all of them, you'd think he'd have mentioned in when they got pissed off at him over the fact it was going to result in killing all of them. Also, do you really think he's so stupid that he'd think joining up with the mass murderer and convincing the guy he would be helpful to keep alive somehow wasn't going to involve helping the guy murder people? Why on earth would he expect Jack to spare him if he's just planning to argue with and refuse to help him?