Eridan Meta, Part One/Who Knows
May. 18th, 2012 05:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
farlaSo, I was reading a perfectly decent Eridan fanfic one day. No woobie apologism or anything. It had Eridan going underwater to meet Feferi and feed her lusus and being miserable about it, an element that's popped up in various fanfics. And suddenly I remembered that we've seen her lusus feeding before, and it never required Eridan to do any such thing, and that if he'd been visiting Feferi underwater she probably wouldn't have said he never goes underwater.
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
And I started to consider Eridan's character and to what degree the fanfic versions are built off canon. Eridan has few pesterlogs and was never a major character, so it's actually quite easy to reread his appearances.
Let's start at the first log.
When he first contacts Kanaya, it's because Vriska has apparently blocked him.
GA: Has It Occurred To You She May Have Blocked You Because You Are Vvery Ovverbearing
GA: I Just Said That Aloud Now In Your Silly Accent And Had A Private Moment Of Enjoyment
CA: wwho givves a shit wwhy she blocked me or about my fuckin manners come on youvve got a wway wwith her
He doesn't contradict her, he just says it doesn't matter because all that matters is he wants to talk to her. Now, take a moment to ponder just how much it would take Vriiiiiiiisk888888888!!!!!!!! :::;D to think someone was overbearing. Consider how much more it would take that Vriska apparently complains about it to Kanaya so much it's her first guess.
Eridan was always this ridiculous and dramatic, even when he had a moirail. It's his default state. And he always had little to no consideration for other people when it came to this.
Also interesting is that it's not clear if Vriska dumped him or if they were never together in the first place. It's also our first appearance of Eridan trying to get someone into a quadrant with him via a third party - so by all appearances, he was pretty desperate prior to the game, and this has no bearing on his relationship with Feferi.
(As a side note - Kanaya does not like him. At all. Just look at this log.)
In the same conversation, he explains that what he's been badgering Vriska about.
CA: kan stupid wwhat do you think its a fuckin gizmo to bloww up the wworld or somethin
CA: ok wwell not that obvviously
CA: but somethin thatll kill all land dwwellers wwhat else wwould i be after
GA: Can You Just For A Moment Entertain The Thoughts Of One Untouched By Megalomaniacal Derangement And Tell Me Why Id Want To Assist You With That
CA: wwell
CA: im not goin to vvery wwell kill you am i that wwould be fuckin unconscionable
CA: wwhat kind of friend wwould i be
GA: Also Speculate For A Moment That Self Preservation Might Not Be What Would Sway My Decision
At the time, it wasn't clear how serious Eridan was about this goal. Word of God has since come down that pre- and post- Murderstuck Eridan were the same person. Even if you want to ignore that, I'd say it's a copout to treat this as empty bluffing - Eridan works with Vriska for some time and between them they seem to amass a sizable body count. (Also, as we'll see in a minute, there's some strong evidence in this very conversation that his post-Murderstuck version is basically the same guy.)
Now.
A lot of stories with Alternian settings work off the assumption Eridan is Feferi's most loyal supporter, and this is really missing a lot of what's interesting about him. Eridan doesn't believe a word of what Feferi says. He believes seadwellers are superior and he believes the lower castes should be wiped out. He's going along with things solely because he likes her, and it's never clear quite how deep that goes. In the event of a showdown between the two tyran-bloods, Eridan's the most likely candidate to support the Condesce - she's an older version of Feferi who either supports or outright set up the hemospectrum caste system Eridan likes so much. In the best case event Eridan really does like Feferi for being Feferi, and not for being attractive or the highest-blooded seadweller or even just the girl who paid the most attention to him so he thinks he's got the best shot with her, he's going to be torn.
And if his behavior on the meteor is anything much to go by, he'd react to anything like the common sgrub plot of the kids turning revolutionaries by deciding the only chance of survival is to surrender and help kill his friends, possibly dragging whoever he's actually in a relationship along with him but more likely killing them when they refuse his suggestion. Because that's what happened on the meteor - he decided they were screwed and figured going over to the other side and helping murder the rest was his best bet, offered Feferi the chance to come with him, then killed her when they tried to stop him insttead.
For Eridan to actually be fighting for a revolution, he needs to be getting something big out of it. Maybe there's a lot of older purplebloods taking up the highest positions, so he's better off decapitating the whole thing if he wants to end up on the very top. Maybe the kids have their sgrub powers or just have so much support that they look like the winning side.
Otherwise, the only real way I can see him even possibly as part of a revolutionary plot without major development is as a double agent where he's in a position to officially support the current regime and pass on information to the revolutionaries so without actually putting himself in any danger or inconvenience. Assuming blood caste is half as big a deal to adults as it is to Eridan, it's possible purplebloods might be given a lot of freedom and be relatively safe from investigation, in which case it's could be safe enough for him to do it. (And he'd likely only be doing it for Feferi - if any other kid is in charge, they'll have to convince him somehow to give any help.)
It's far more likely that if he's involved, he'd end up in some black relationship with the rebel leader the way Dualscar was with Mindfang with any help limited to him trying to ensure no one else steals his fight. He likes the hemospectrum and he likes being on the winning side.
CA: fine i get it ill step off
CA: you dont wwant to be our auspistice cause you dont wwant to get locked into that sort of relation wwith her i can respect that
And speaking of Eridan's killing spree, I think it's telling that it's right when we see him do two things in close succession - try to force someone into an ashen relationship to break her current quadrant, and murder Kanaya. The former is not a change of heart from Eridan - Eridan opens the conversation saying he knows Kanaya's red for Vriska, then spends most of it trying to badger her into auspiticizing. When he makes no headway on this, then and only then does he say he respects Kanaya's feelings. His behavior about the doomsday device is therefore suspect - he reassures Kanaya he won't kill her only after she refuses to help him, in the hopes that will change her mind.
Indeed, all of Eridan's many requests for someone to be his auspistice can be seen as disrespecting the choices of others, since we'll see it ends up being something he says when the other person he claims he needs a mediator for actually wants nothing to do with him. It's like signing yourself and a random classmate for couple's counseling.
(It's possible this isn't intended to be trying to force a kismesis relationship on someone by a roundabout route but just Eridan being generally terrible at initiating anything. The situation with Feferi was one where he apparently just waited around wishing she'd suddenly throw herself at him, so maybe he prefers the ashen thing because it lets him ask for a relationship from someone other than the person he's actually interested in. It's hard to say for certain because Feferi seems to be the exception for a lot of things, and certainly by the end he's trying to force others into an ashen relationship.)
In other words, Eridan doesn't give a shit about other people. It's possible Feferi is somewhat of an exception here, but if so, she wasn't enough of one for him to actually spare her. And for everyone else, Eridan can recognize their feelings, chat with them like they're his friend, then murder them when it comes up without hesitation, because they don't matter in comparison.
The most you can say about Eridan here is it isn't clear if he absolutely doesn't care or if he doesn't care when it gets in his way. Under the former interpretation, he could be quite sincere about not wanting to kill Kanaya or getting that she doesn't want to be part of an ashen relationship with Vriska, and willing to respect those things as long as they don't conflict with what he wants for himself, be setting off a doomsday device or getting in a relationship with someone. Consider this section:
CA: yeah it is your real feelins run pretty awwful RUDDY methinks evverybody knowws it
CA: especially that assblood karkat he and me havve you so pegged about that its upright silly
Eridan and Karkat seem to gossip a lot (although obviously Eridan wasn't paying much attention to Karkat's advice, or else the average Alternian romcom encourages Eridan's kind of behavior). He's possibly Eridan's second closest friend after Feferi. And yet Eridan also identifies Karkat by insulting Karkat's blood and his apparent friendship doesn't make Eridan feel hesitant about killing all landdwellers nor does he later extend an invitation to Karkat to come with him to join Jack - while he doesn't attack Karkat at the time, it should be pointed out that he's planning to help Jack kill everyone when they return, so that doesn't amount to much. (As a sidenote, Karkat must be really, really desperate for someone to talk quadrants with if he's doing it with Eridan.)
Karkat will also be the only other person to tolerate Eridan's whining for extended periods - he'll rage about it, but not particularly more than he does generally and he displays more tolerance than the rest of the gang. Just look at Kanaya here - one of the first things she says is that he's demanding and takes her for granted, and later on she's expressing amazement that Feferi has the patience for this. Compare how much they're talking and you see what she means - Eridan is completely dominating the conversation while Kanaya keeps trying to get him to leave her be. There's a total of 1100 words in that pesterlog and 766 are his.
One thing that doesn't come up much is Eridan<>Karkat. You could say it's because Karkat<>Gamzee is one of those perfect fated pairs, but it doesn't require nearly that level of explanation - Eridan, despite needing to be talked out of bad ideas every few minutes, thinks very little of the quadrant. That probably has to do with why everyone around him views him as a dramallama, constantly soliciting attention that never amounts to any change.
At this point, Kanaya praises Feferi's incredible patience for dealing with Eridan, something fandom rarely considers with Feferi's characterization. She put up with him for ages out of obligation and more impressively still, didn't just keep telling him not to kill landdwellers but continued to care about his life in general and try to maintain the relationship.
Then Kanaya trolls Eridan by claiming Feferi is red for him. Again, she really doesn't like him.
It's interesting that Eridan completely fails to get this. I suspect it's that people end up annoyed at him all the time, so he doesn't see anything odd about her acting like this, and I also suspect he ultimately doesn't care much if they're annoyed. It's a conversation that opens with her complaining about him taking her for granted and has her pointing out that it's his own behavior that led to Vriska avoiding him, and he just continues on. I suppose it's somewhat pitiable to be the annoying kid no one can stand, but most of his problem is not realizing/caring about that, so it's not like he ever noticed (if he did, he'd stop being so annoying in the first place).
Eridan goes on to compare moirails to being friendzoned and we end the conversation on
CA: kan its hard
GA: What
CA: being a kid and growwing up
CA: its hard and nobody understands
While what Eridan says shouldn't just be taken at face value, things like this show that he's probably not manipulative all or even most of the time. This closing bit of self-pity is said right before Eridan ends the log, so he's apparently not concerning himself with what Kanaya thinks or if it'll convince her to do anything. He's just talking normally.
From how this conversation goes, I think Eridan usually is just saying whatever's on his mind until the other person says no, at which point he says whatever he thinks will get them to say yes (but kan of course i wwont kill you wwhen i kill all land dwwellers wwere friends).
So, what does this mean for Eridan?
Well, in sum, Eridan's core problem is that he's Eridan, not that Feferi dumped him or Sollux turned him down or Kanaya didn't spend her time comforting him or no one visited him while he was blowing up his consorts. It's all there from the very start.
It's quite plausible for him to grow as a person, and he may be capable of actual friendships and caring about people and it's just buried very far down at this point. There's even some canon suggestion of this from the alt-timeline dead Eridan, who's hanging around with that timeline's Feferi. Eridan in canon doesn't get to see what happens after he gets the things he wants, after all - it may be that they aren't what would actually make him happy in the end and just what he thinks he's supposed to do. But when the most you can say for someone is that after killing everyone, they might come to realize they miss being able to talk to people, that's a pretty low standard. A lot of what sounds like decent opinions from Eridan is just hot air - he's saying things because they sound good to whoever he's speaking to at the moment. He has a long way to go to actually be a halfway tolerable person.
One point I haven't seen explored much is why Eridan has such issues with moirallegiance. He's the only one of the gang to clearly state that pale is inferior to red. Why? The general theory is that he only values sexual relationships, but he's an emotional leech to all his acquaintances. And he constantly wants attention - chatting and feelings jams are probably not actually exclusive to moirails going by canon rather than fanon, but a moirail is still another person who pays attention to you and you'd think he'd be all over that. It could just be that he's red for Feferi and projecting his frustrations onto the entire quadrant, but he continues to pursue the concupiscent romances throughout the game with everyone else and also tries to talk people into an ashen relationship where it's not clear if he's actually planning to swing that into a full kismesis or what.
I think the issue is that Eridan can't accept advice or the idea he needs to change. He rejects the idea that how he talks to Vriska and Kanaya matters at all, he'd rather whine about how they should be available for him no matter how he acts. A moirail is meant to listen and then rein in, and Eridan has no interest in the second half. He wouldn't even be talked out of spending the entire game murdering his own consorts. For Eridan to change is going to first require Eridan to realize he needs to - no one else is going to make the slightest bit of headway before then. Even Feferi was likely never holding him in check like she thought - his stated reason for not slacking on feeding her lusus is that it'd make her sad, so it's a matter of his flushed crush, not anything pale she said or did for him.
If we're looking at how Eridan could improve as a person, this is the part to really consider. Eridan has no interest in changing. Even Feferi never made a dent in this. He only cares about what others think of him in the shallowest manner. What would cause him to reevaluate that?
no subject
Date: 2012-05-29 04:20 am (UTC)Well, he grew up in a nasty society, and was expected to be nasty himself. On top of his personality problems, this societal expectation, his (self-imposed, granted) isolation and probable instability, there was also the fact that he had basically given up hope that anything would turn out well and was waiting to die. That is a lot of pressure to put on a 13-year and it isn't surprising to me that he gave up. Cowardly? Yes. The right thing to do? Of course not. Understandable? Put it this way: I wouldn't want to be in that situation.
Once he decided to run to Jack, the other trolls had no choice but to kill him, leaving him with little choice but to kill them. Given this situation, I simply can't see Eridan as a sociopathic murder as opposed to a frightened kid with a laundry list of issues.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-01 09:14 pm (UTC)Yes, but the fact someone has reasons to be nasty doesn't make them not nasty. Eridan had many reasons to act like he did, but he still did all those things.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-02 01:17 am (UTC)"Once he decided to run to Jack, the other trolls had no choice but to kill him, leaving him with little choice but to kill them. Given this situation, I simply can't see Eridan as a sociopathic murder as opposed to a frightened kid with a laundry list of issues."
He was going to kill them so they tried to kill him so he killed them so you see he really wasn't going to kill them at first!
I know it's hard to keep track of everything that happens in Homestuck, but at least keep track of what you're typing.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-03 11:12 am (UTC)Eridan, on the other hand, thought he could stave off Jack's tendency towards indiscriminate destruction by offering to work for him. So possibly, he may thought he would be able to to get Jack to leave the meteor alone (while people actually with him had a greater chance of survival if he wasn't able to do that), or maybe the other trolls didn't enter into his plan at all. It's hard to say.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-03 01:00 pm (UTC)Could you explain to me why on earth you think this?
no subject
Date: 2012-06-03 02:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-03 03:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-03 04:08 pm (UTC)And he would be doing whatever the killing machine wanted in return for some concessions on the killing machine's part. Himself and Feferi would have been among those concessions; he may have tried to include the other trolls as well. Again, not sure, but it is a possibility.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-06 01:12 pm (UTC)And he would be doing whatever the killing machine wanted in return for some concessions on the killing machine's part
Yes. The doing whatever the killing machine wanted would be telling it where his friends were and helping kill them. The concessions would be not killing him. You seem to think Eridan could bargain with Jack by asking Jack to stop doing everything in return for Eridan doing jack shit.
he may have tried to include the other trolls as well. Again, not sure, but it is a possibility.
It is possible in the sense Eridan isn't physically incapable of asking for the other trolls to be included. What about it makes you think it's plausible, however?
no subject
Date: 2012-06-07 03:11 am (UTC)ERIDAN: im goin to join him
...
ERIDAN: only thing left to do is servve him and hope he spares us
...
ERIDAN: servvin under jack together wwell be unstoppable and our anemones wwill tremble before us wwhat do you say
So the way Eridan is talking, it seems as though he thinks Jack is trying to accomplish something, and he can perhaps get Jack to leave him (and Feferi, and possibly the others[?]) alone in exchange for serving him for some lengthy period. The question here is, why would he even think that? Well...
ERIDAN: i slaughtered enough angels to knoww my limits and wwhere i stand against the lord of all angels they prophecized
ERIDAN: of course im not gonna fight him i stand no chance in hell against that guy
So an excellent question to ask is, who and/or what is the lord of all angels? Depending on what else he has heard about this being, he may have gotten the idea that he might have been able to get Jack to spare his friends by working with him.
Continuing on:
FEFERI: I t)(oug)(t you were supposed to be t)(e Prince of )(ope? )(ow is it )(opeful to surrender to a murderous demon like a COWARD???
Feferi, at least, doesn't get the impression that the plan involves killing her friends, otherwise you'd think that would be her main objection, as opposed to whether or not it would be cowardly to do join Jack. And finally:
FEFERI: T)(at’s it. T)(is makes me sad, -Eridan, but now we )(ave to stop you. We can’t let you find Jack and risk you leading )(im to us.
If Eridan's plan was to kill them, him leading Jack there would be a certainty, not a risk.
(all quotes from http://pastebin.com/qsT2MkQ8)
no subject
Date: 2012-06-07 03:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-14 03:01 am (UTC)If you notice, at the time Eridan goes to Feferi to invite her to join Jack with him, Karkat is also in the room with them, and he stops Kanaya from leaving. It's possible he meant to speak to them afterwards as well. After all, if what you are saying is right, and Eridan meant to kill everyone on his return, then why stop Kanaya from leaving in the first place? It's just an unnecessary complication and he could have just killed everyone with ease when he got back.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 03:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 04:15 am (UTC)Kanaya did not attack Eridan after he murdered Feferi. They were in a stand off, with her clearly angry but having not yet drawn her weapon. If he felt she were an imminent threat to him, as would be consistent with your claim that he acted in self-defense, he might reasonably have attacked her right then to keep her from attacking him first. If he were feeling at all guilty about having just murdered someone or hesitant about murdering yet more people, as would be consistent with him being a remotely decent person, he might have at least attempted to defuse the situation without further bloodshed.
Instead, his first move was to destroy the Matriorb and provoke her further.
Please explain to me how this indicates that he really truly honestly didn't want to kill her, he was just terrified and acting to protect himself.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 12:44 pm (UTC)As for why Eridan destroyed the Matriorb, I think he saw it as a source of /false/ hope, and watching the other trolls put their trust in something that wouldn't work out ticked him off on principle. He wouldn't necessarily have destroyed the Matriorb out of pure spite; letting people put faith in false hope is a terrible thing by his standards:
TC: BuT I ToLd hIm tO Be cHiLl
TC: BeCaUsE ThErE Is a mIrAcLe cOmInG, i cAn fEeL It
CA: that is the wworst fuckin advvice
CA: wwhat an awwful thing a you to say
CA: MAGIC ISNT REAL STUPID STOP BELIEVVIN IN IT
(from http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004375)
For that matter, he might have even destroyed the Matriorb to demoralise the other trolls enough into following him to Jack, but I am just throwing ideas at the wall at this point.
(The other theory I have for why he destroyed the Matriorb is nicknamed 'Weird Angel Shit'. Basically, you start with the angels, who, to trolls, are mythical demons with awful feathery wings that Paradox Space uses to usher in the end [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003982], who took Eridan under their wings and whose light Eridan used to destroy the Matriorb [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005532]. It seems to me as though the the angels may have given him the task of destroying hope (ie the Matriorb), which would tie in with his role as the Prince of Hope.
Furthermore, Eridan's assumed denizen, Abraxas, is a gnostic deity who, from my quick read-throughs, seems to represents the harmonization of good and evil, that is, the heroic and the villainous.
The Gnostic deity Abraxas is used as a symbol throughout the text, idealizing the harmonious union of all that is good and evil in the world. Demian argues that the Christian God is an insufficient god; it rules over all that is wholesome, but there is another half of the world. The symbol of Abraxas appears as a bird breaking free from an egg or a globe.
[from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demian]
So basically, my theory is that Eridan was groomed to become a villain (or at least an antihero) by the angels, probably to contrast against Jake's role as a hero, because good was not enough to win victory. Note this particular line:
The bird struggles out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas.
[from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demian]
Destroying the Matriorb sounds a lot like destoying a 'world' (ie a race) to me. Then there's the fact that abracadabra, a word noted for its use in magic is derived from the word Abraxas [http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=abracadabra]. This would be the magic [SCIENCE!!!] that the angels gave Eridan and that he later used to destroy the Matriorb mind you.
TLDR Eridan destroyed the Matriorb because the angels said to. And he was probably going to explain this to Kanaya but then shit went to hell.)
no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 01:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2012-06-15 04:06 pm (UTC)Yes, I noticed.
You don't seem to actually have any idea why he might have done it, and your reasoning seems to boil down to SINCE he only killed them in self-defense, THEN there must be a different explanation for why he did all the stuff that contradicts that, THEREFORE it's a huge mystery and here's a bunch of possibilities and one of them must be right.
This is not a good way of arguing.
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Date: 2012-06-03 11:50 am (UTC)Ah. Point, point. Replace certain with 'fairly sure' then; as in, it is my firmly held (but unproven) opinion that this is the case.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-03 01:06 pm (UTC)You can't be "fairly sure" if there's no evidence. You can't even be "somewhat sure". If there's no evidence, then you're just saying what you want to happen. I want all the characters to be somehow revived at the end, but my wanting it doesn't have any bearing on how likely it is.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-03 03:01 pm (UTC)----
I will have to disagree with you on whether or not Eridan was changing. Say what you will, but before SGRUB, the fast majority of his friends were landdwellers, his doomsday devices always seemed to mysteriously fail (and as it turns out, he had a far more efficient way of killing landdwellers all along), and he admits to becoming fond of some of them (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004348), in a situation where admitting so didn't improve his argument. This and the fact that he turned out much better in an alternate timeline, as you acknowledge above, implies that he was gradually changing, but the timeline where his story had a happy ending was vetoed by "GIANT FUCKING SQUID".
I never got the feeling that Eridan was fully invested in the hemospectrum, merely pretending to be for the sake of appearances. As Feferi points out, he's been underwater only a few days in his entire life. Outside of Feferi, all of his quadrants and potential quadrants are landwellers, even before SGRUB. His 'nubby-horned' bro with whom he spends all his time gossiping is a landdweller. In fact, there's no evidence that he's spent any time talking to other sea dwellers at all. In his log with Rose here (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004705) he seems to take fish puns as a sign of nobility and assures Rose that he knows a lot of them. In reality, Eridan gets annoyed when Feferi uses fish puns, which could be seen as a sign that he doesn't feel as close to his seadweller brethren as he tries to appear.
If Eridan was so proud and ready to commit genocide, then why lie to Feferi about the seriousness of his doomsday device search (which is explicitly stated to be an excuse to meet with Vriska)? In fact, as stated before, Eridan could have gotten his genocide without getting Feferi angry at him by agreeing with her and then pretending to be incapacitated until Gl'bgolyb got hungry. The fact that he felt the need to hide his flirting with Vriska behind a genocidal veil suggests a fear that Feferi would discover that he wasn't really as serious about genocide as he tried to appear. Eridan's behaviour suggests that he had a genocide complex and a need to follow in his heroes' footsteps that he couldn't bring himself to act on due to both Feferi's influence and the fact that he was fond of several of the landdwellers he wanted to kill.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-03 03:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-03 04:04 pm (UTC)On the second and third paragraphs, you stated that he used the hemospectrum to define himself as superior to everyone else, but was hypocritical about it. didn't respond because you wanted to leave it as a topic for later logs, but I can't say I truly buy that explanation. For one thing, you have to ask: why doesn't Eridan have more seadweller friends? The only sea-dweller he seems to talk with regularly is Feferi, who wants to abolish the hemospectrum. Furthermore, Eridan doesn't seem to be trying very hard to change Feferi's mind about hating landdwellers. His own behaviour isn't exactly encouraging, and he appears to have given up trying to explain his stance to Feferi.
Also, note that Eridan appears to place more stock in the hemospectrum post-SGRUB than pre-SGRUB. There's a hint, in that when referring to Sollux, he doesn't refer to him as a pissblood but as a 'fuckin drama machine'(http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004367). He even manages an apology when Feferi yells at him afterwards, and he seems genuinely affected by Sollux's death. He only starts referring to Sollux as a pissblood post-SGRUB, and even that, some of that may be due to his hate-crush.
One hypothesis I've heard for why Eridan clings to the hemospectrum, especially post-SGRUB, is that he is somewhat self-loathing and sees the hemospectrum as a source of self-worth. Again, there's no hard evidence but it is something to think about. It would explain why his stock in the hemospectrum increases after his breakup with Feferi and subsequent rejections.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-06 01:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-07 02:34 am (UTC)1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
(from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy)
So in that case, is what you are saying that Eridan has a pretense of hating landdwellers when he actually doesn't? In that case, yes, that is the point I was trying to make. In fact, that is more than the point that I was trying to make. Eridan does believe that he is supposed to be killing landdwellers, due to what society has taught him is the proper thing to do. He is conflicted over it due to his landdweller friends and Feferi, which ends in him pretending to be interested in killing landdwellers when he actually isn't.
And the reason why Feferi is so stressed out is multifaceted:
1. She doesn't actually know that he isn't really trying to kill landdwellers. She has her suspicions:
CC: I t)(ink deep down you stack t)(ese plots against you so you fail because you know it's wrong.
...
CC: Mmm )(mm.
CC: I )(ave a fis)(y feeling...
CC: T)(at t)(is stupid doomsday mac)(ine t)(ing is just anot)(er excuse to consort!
but can't be sure, and Eridan won't admit it, so she is forced to keep an eye on him just in case.
2. Eridan isn't really comfortable sharing all his feelings with her, due to him really being flushed for her. Perfect example:
CC: So ok. T)(ose are your black leanings.
CC: W)(at about R-ED, ------Eridan???
CC: )(MMMMM??????? 38D
CA: oh god
CC: Is t)(ere a lucky lady you are waxing scarlet for?
CC: OR LUCKY F-ELLOW??? 38O
CA: uh
CC: Tell me!
CC: Don't pretend you're all -EMBARRASS-ED SUDD-ENLY!!!
CA: ok fef
CA: this is NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS
CC: 38o
CA: i gotta go
CA: be back later wwhen its time to play
(http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004348)
Let's be clear: Eridan brought this on himself by not being open about his feelings. So I don't blame Feferi for dumping him, although I do side-eye her telling Kanaya that it isn't important to know if you are really pale for someone.
CC: Isnt t)(at w)(at youre doing too? Joining late to keep an eye on [your moirail]?
GA: I Dont Know For A Fact That She Is Mine
CC: )(a)(a youre not supposed to know for a FACT dummy!
CC: You just do w)(at you t)(ink is rig)(t and even if you were wrong t)(e worst t)(at )(appened was you )(elped somebody and )(elped t)(e w)(ole world too!
(http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004228)
If she wasn't really pale for Eridan, then that could have also played into why being his moirail stressed her out so much. But yeah, 90% of it was Eridan's fault. Of course, being closed about how you are really feeling is an occupational hazard of being a dumb, prideful kid who is under pressure to act a certain way.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-07 01:44 pm (UTC)Yes clearly we shouldn't let any comment on Eridan being at fault go without adding that also Feferi is bad because she put Eridan and other people before her own personal happiness.